Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 11:53:12 +0000
From: Mike Drew {[email protected]}
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Wrecked Pantera in HOT ROD
To: Multiple recipients of list {[email protected]}

Mooneyman wrote:

}Have you known anyone to ever attempt this (fiberglass fastback)? Seems that 
just tacking a hunk of plexiglass to the deck lid is rather risky with the 
amount of high/low pressure forces involved. 

}}}Well, during the '70's it wasn't uncommon to fit Lambo Muira-style slats to 
   the decklid.  These are available from Hall Pantera to this day.  They're 
   screwed into the decklid sheetmetal as I recall.  Might be a good idea for 
   Silver Stater's to consider (Mad Dog?) 


Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 15:37:46 +0000
From: Andy Poling {[email protected]}
Subject: Re: Silver State images!
To: Multiple recipients of list {[email protected]}

} I think I know this car.  There's a guy in San Diego that
} has a car that color, and the front bumper is painted just
} like that, flares, and the wing.  I think his name is George.
} That's all I know.
}
} I'm sure other here in the group can add to the story behind
} this image.

Yep - I met him and saw the car when I was in San Diego last Spring.  He
gave me (and Alan Foster, who took me to visit him) the calendar with that
picture in it.  That was part of my whirlwind tour of San Diego and the
Panteras there that Alan took me on once I'd bought my car from him.

The owner is sort of an inventor type guy, and the car is *highly*
customized with practically every feature re-engineered (examples I can
remember: tilt wheel, vacuum-powered louvered rear window, re-engineered
front trunk release, battery relocated, engine highly detailed and
customized - you can hardly see the engine for all the chrome).  It had
apparently been sitting in the garage alot because things were a bit dusty,
and some jerk had "keyed" one side of the car pretty bad.  But it was
obviously a labor of love, and the paint was very pretty.

I can't remember his name either, but I'll bet Bill Hohnhorst knows... how
about it Bill?


Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 13:58:25 +0000
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re:  ride height / rake figures
To: Multiple recipients of list {[email protected]}

Best I could do is what's listed in the Tech Service Bulletin #4, Dec 1. 1972: 
(wheel geometry & vehicle trim): gives the ht from a level floor to the center 
of the lower rear a-arm attach bolts as 6.89+ 0.040 inches. Can't find 
anything for the front, though. Measuring to the center of the suspension 
bolts does away with all body-damage changes to ride height, though. J DeRyke 


Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 16:41:38 +0000
From: Cristiano Rossi {[email protected]}
Subject: Sv: ride height / rake figures
To: Multiple recipients of list {[email protected]}

-} of the lower rear a-arm attach bolts as 6.89+ 0.040 inches. Can't find

In the front the height has to be 185 +/- 10 mm from the floor to the
centre of the lower a-arm attach bolts.

In the rear the height has to be 175 +/- 10 mm from the floor to the centre
of the lower a-arm attach bolts.

I consider the most correct height to be 185 front and 175 rear, not using
the +/- 10 mm.

These heights are with the originally mounted 185/70 VR 15-tires in front
and 215/70 VR 15-tires in the rear. If you, as almost everybody, use tires
with another diameter, you have to compensate for the height difference.
This is done very easily.

The standard rear tires (215/70) have a height that is 70% of the width, or
215 mm x 0.7 = 150.5 mm. This is the theoretical height of the tire from
the edge of the rim to the street (only theoretical because the tire is
compressed a bit when the car is standing on the ground).

If you for example use 235/60-tires instead of 215/70, the theoretical
height of your tire will be 235 mm x 0.6 = 141 mm., that is 9.5 mm lower
than the height of the standard tires. (The calculation is a bit more
complicated if you use rims with another diameter than 15".)

This difference does not only give you a considerably lower total gearing,
it will also lower the height of your car by 9.5 mm. With these tires, you
must not set the rear height to 175 mm, it has to be 165,5 mm, so the wheel
geometry won't get affected by the change of the tire size.

I have tried to drive my car when it was a couple of cm's too high, and it
was a terrible experience. It was quite another car and certainly not a
Pantera to drive - besides the fact that the tires got very hot very
quickly because of the incorrect wheel geometry.


Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 22:51:27 +0000
From: [email protected] (George P. Dausch IV)
Subject: Re: Mystery Door Repairs
To: Multiple recipients of list {[email protected]}

Haven't experienced that problem, but since I just disassembled my doors,
removed the exterior door handles, cut up and rewelded the latch
assemblies, and made the whole shebang electric remote automatic opening,
I know how it works (ed).

Roll up the window, remove the door panel, and a small hand can reach up
and remove the two (?) 10mm(?) nuts that hold the outside latch in place.
Just pull it out and either the plunger broke off or the little arm on
the latching mechanism.

If the latch need to come out, top screw on the door jamb releases the
top of the window rail guide.  10mm bolt at the bottom.  Nylon locking
tab behind the inside latch assembly that holds the long rod.  3 phillips
screws surrounding the latch on the door jamb.  The long rod has a guide
in the middle behind a plate.  Carefully twist and jiggle and the whole
assembly will come out.

The outside lever unit I have, some pieces for the latch assembly.


Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 23:46:03 +0000
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re:  Mystery Door Repairs
To: Multiple recipients of list {[email protected]}

}Any Door latch mechanism Experts/Specialists out there?

}}}I'll fake it! :})

}Attempted to open the outside driver's door on my '72 and I heard
}something fall down inside the door!!
}Thinking it was a bolt or nut that had backed off I pulled the door
}panel off and fished out not a bolt or nut but a broken small "piece of
}pot metal. . .I assume it's off the exterior door latch assembly. Before
}I get into the autopsy any further has anyone experienced a like/similar
}problem and fixed it?

}}}Dennis, you have unfortunately encountered one of the weakest links in the
   Pantera design, the Cheesy Door Handle Syndrome.

The door handle (chrome part) consists of the chrome part you see and pull
with your fingers, which has a hole through which it's pinned to the plastic
surround, and at the other end is an arm which pushes a lever which causes the
monkey-motion to ensue which unlatches the door.

Note:  It UNLATCHES the door.  It doesn't OPEN the door.  You should NEVER
actually OPEN the door by pulling on this chrome piece!  It is the most
woefully underengineered part on the car, made of the worst metal Italy had to
offer at the time, and spindly to boot.  The two common failures are breakage
of the internal springs (which causes the door pull to sort of flop around,
instead of returning to its flush position), and breakage of the actual arm
itself, which is probably what happened to you.

This part is so pathetic that most people agree it's impossible to even weld
it.  It just explodes and evaporates when faced with welding rod.  Back in the
old days, when your chrome door pull broke, you had to pitch the whole
mechanism and get a new one for several hundred dollars.

But now Hall Pantera has remanufactured each of the components of the door
latch mechanism.  Well, I know they advertise that they have all the
components.  I know they're making the housing out of aluminum.  While they
offer replacement chrome pulls as well, I don't know if they're actually new,
or just leftover used units.  I'd give him a call to find out.

Anyway, you MIGHT be able to jury-rig a repair of your unit.  You'll probably
have to create some sort of metal sleeve to slide over both broken halves of
the arm and secure it with epoxy of some type.  If it broke somewhere in the
middle, you're probably okay.  If it broke right at the base, then yer
screwed!

Again, people, read and heed:  do NOT pull your doors open by the chrome door
latch!  Instead, simply pull on the latch to unlatch the door, and it will pop
open an inch or so due to the force of the weatherstrip.  Then put your
fingers behind the sheetmetal lip at the rear edge of the door and open it the
rest of the way from there!  Fail to follow this technique, and eventually
you'll be faced with the same dilemma as Dennis!


Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 00:56:00 +0000
From: John Parsons {[email protected]}
Subject: Re: Mystery Door Repairs
To: Multiple recipients of list {[email protected]}

} Any Door latch mechanism Experts/Specialists out there?
} Attempted to open the outside driver's door on my '72 and I heard
} something fall down inside the door!!

I had exactly the same thing. I tried to weld it, but it would keep breaking 
again. I ended up machining a new arm from a pice of 1/4 flat steel and it was 
a pain in the butt to do. It was so long ago I can't remember exactly what it 
loopked like , but it hasn't failed yet! If I had to do it over I would'nt!  
I'd just get a new handle.  may even have a spare. 


Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 12:33:51 +0000
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re:  Mangusta wheel alignment
To: Multiple recipients of list {[email protected]}

Got this from George Gordon-Smith in England (george@orchard-
trust.prestel.co.uk):

}My own spec is buried in a pile of papers but I will look for it. I was
}given the following specification for the Mangusta, as standard, by Emilia
}Concessionaires (UK DeTomaso importer) last year.

Please bear in mind the information may be worth just what it cost me -
nothing!

Here goes:-

FRONT:-

Caster Angle   3.5 to 4 degrees

Camber   20 min negative

Toe in   30 min


REAR:-

Camber   30 min negative

Toe in    1 mil per wheel (whatever that means. I think mine is 30  min
negative)

This should be for the stock Mangusta on stock tyres. If that doesn't seem
to work, please get in touch again and I will try to find out more.


Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 02:22:14 +0000
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re:  Re:  Outside Mirrors
To: Multiple recipients of list {[email protected]}

{{...received a couple of good remarks about salvaging mirrors from a Chrysler
  'K' car...}}

I've been running Dodge Omni mechanical inside-adjustable mirrors for several
years and am satisfied. I replaced the Pantera's side glass with Lexan and
BOLTED the mirrors thru them! There is a weird wedge-shaped adapter needed to
fit the mirrors this way and still get a useful field of view, which I fabbed
from Nature's Hi-Tech Composite (a piece of white pine 2 x4). But I can verify
the mirrors do not blow off at up to 145 mph! J DeRyke


Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 01:14:21 +0000
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re:  Sv: rust
To: Multiple recipients of list {[email protected]}

{{Has anybody ever made a complete list of all the places where the drain
  holes must be drilled? }}

The original 'hole-drilling' technique was done by Ted Mitchell in the '70s I 
believe. He wrote extensively of this in various POCA tech bulletins over the 
years. When he come back on-line, you can ask him for the collection. J DeRyke 


Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 16:19:24 +0000
From: [email protected]
Subject: Chassis stiffening kit!!
To: Multiple recipients of list {[email protected]}

I recently read on the forum about a chassis stiffening kit offered by
Hall Pantera.  I am not real familiar with this item,  but if it is a
removable X-member that fits between the lower A-arms on the rear of the
car, this piece was not conceived by Hall Pantera.

The original removable X-member was conceived by Captain Billy Hodges
and Mike Cook at Panteras by Cook.  How do I know this?  The X-member
was built for my racing Pantera when it was originally built in 1993!!!

Not only was the Piece built to stiffen the chassis, but also to replace
the singular bar crossover.  Someone obviously saw it on my car, liked
it and copied it.

Each car is hand built, so each car's measurements are slightly
different.  A standard made piece is marketable, but will more than
likely need massaging.

All this goes to show that Hall Pantera is a premier marketer and
recognizes a good thing.  I commend the establishment.

I'm more concerned that the Forum knows where the piece originated and
give credit, where credit is due.  Panteras by Cook is not large, but
they are understanding and go further than anyone will ever realize, to
put a quality job out the door.


Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 00:10:52 +0000
From: David Nunn {[email protected]}
Subject: Re: Chassis stiffening kit!!
To: Multiple recipients of list {[email protected]}

Ron Siple markets a similar removable x-member. There was both a written
description and photos of this item in the winter '92 issue of P.I.  He now
adds a bracket to this brace that bolts to the top two bellhousing bolts,
further stiffening the rear structure. The last few Pantera's produced (post
'90) had a similar brace from the factory (bolted to the bellhousing). Both
Siple and the factory mounted these braces in rubber to prevent vibrations
from the drivetrain being transmitted to the chassis.


Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 13:48:01 +0000
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re:  RE: sphere bars input
To: Multiple recipients of list {[email protected]}

{{Can anyone tell a poor ignorant Kiwi what a sphere bar is?}}

Gary Hall came up with the "sphere-bar" term. It is the spherical bushing from
a Heim-joint adapted to a block that's bolted to the a-arm mount. A swaybar
end goes thru a definite angle as the a-arm moves up/down. With a poly-bushing
on the end, the end of the bar is bent a little as the center part of the bar
is twisted. The twisting is the sway-bar action we want; the bending is an
unwanted and uncontrolled spring-action that is best eliminated. Cheers- J


Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 13:55:10 +0000
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re:  Sphear Bar Question/fronts
To: Multiple recipients of list {[email protected]}

{{Would the Sphear Bars brackets help or hinder the stiffness of the stock bar 
  when used.}} 

Tim, I think it would make things worse since the effect would be to increase
the amount of front swaybar deflection by removing the bending-force from the
ends and allowing slightly more twist of the center section. And adding
urethane to the frame mounts in place of the stock rubber will also increase
the bar's effectiveness a bit. My best guess, anyway! J DeRyke


Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 16:23:09 +0000
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re:  Engine? noise
To: Multiple recipients of list {[email protected]}

{{The noise sounds quite like a top-end engine "knocking' but happens only
  during acceleration between 2,800 and 2,900 rpm. }}

The Pantera chassis seems to have a resonant noise at around that rev range
under power, coming from: the floorboards, the rear deck x-brace or "other"
depending on who you believe. It may not have anything to do with the motor. J
DeRyke


Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 13:52:12 +0000
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re:  Hidden antenna's
To: Multiple recipients of list {[email protected]}

Frank, I built a steel u-shaped bracket under the rt front fender that mounts 
to the windshield wiper shield studs. The bracket mounts a std antenna just 
below the fender surface- no special antenna needed. Shim-washers adjust the 
closed-height perfectly, replacement is quite cheap & punks can't snap it off. 


Date: Thu, 01 Oct 1998 21:39:01 +0000
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re:   Help! Wheel alignment
To: Multiple recipients of list {[email protected]}

}Mike...what about the specs for the other cars ?

}}}Okay, here goes.  The specs listed below are for the Pantera L (basically
   the standard model) followed by the GTS (presumably with 8 and 10-inch 
   Campys.)  These specs come from DeTomaso, not Ford, and date from sometime 
   in the late '80's or early '90's. 

These numbers are common to all Panteras:

Caster Angle:  3 degrees 30 minutes to 4 degrees

Kingpin angle:  8 degrees

Now, for specifics:

L-model (and by extension, Pre-L too...)

Front wheel camber:  0 plus or minutes 8 minutes / 0 plus or minus 1 mm / 0
plus or minus 1/8"

Front wheel toe-in:  0 degrees 24 minutes / 3 mm / 1/8"

Rear wheel camber:  0 degrees 30 minutes, plus or minus 8 minutes / 4 mm plus
or minus 1 mm / 1/2" plus or minus 1/8"

Rear wheel toe-in:  0 degrees 24 minutes to 0 degrees 42 minutes / 4 mm plus
or minus 1 mm / 1/8" to 3/16"


GTS Specs:

Front wheel camber: 8 minutes to 16 minutes / 1 to 2 mm / 3/64" to 5/64"

Front wheel toe-in:  8 minutes to 16 minutes / 1 to 2 mm / 3/64" to 5/64"

Rear wheel camber:  16 to 30 minutes / 2 to 4 mm / 5/64" to 5/32"

Rear wheel toe-in:  16 to 30 minutes / 2 to 4 mm / 5/64" to 5/32"

COMMENTARY:

The fascinating thing about all these figures is that often they conflict with
one another.  For example, check out these L-model specs:

Rear wheel camber:  0 degrees 30 minutes, plus or minus 8 minutes / 4 mm plus
or minus 1 mm / 1/2" plus or minus 1/8"

Rear wheel toe-in:  0 degrees 24 minutes to 0 degrees 42 minutes / 4 mm plus
or minus 1 mm / 1/8" to 3/16"


Both of them, in mm, are 4 plus or minus 1.  But when expressed in other
measurements, you can see that the actual desired measurement is different.

I wouldn't put a whole lot of faith into these alignment specs.  Also, FWIW,
Ford changed the recommended alignment specs no less than three times.
Changes noted from left to right:

Year                       1972                1973            1974
Front Camber          -1/8 to +1/8             same            same
Front toe-in                1/8                same            3/8
Rear camber            +3/8 to +5/8         -3/8 to -5/8       same
Rear toe-in              3/16 to 5/16        1/8 to 3/16       same
Front Caster            (none given)          2 3/4 pos        same

The first TSB contained a typo on rear camber; they forgot to print that it
was NEGATIVE and thus people might easily assume it was positive; that was
rectified in the second TSB.  I think the intent was there all along; Ford
engineers originally probably assumed that people would know to set negative
camber in the rear.

In 1972, the TSB stated that front caster was "...pre-set, and under normal
circumstances should not be altered."  They finally got smart and established
a setting by '73, although I think it's probably a fake number established by
measuring what could reasonably be achieved on most cars, not necessarily the
optimal figure (Panteras can use all the caster they can get, as much as 8-10
degrees on the super go-fast racers.)

There's a lot of people on this list with SERIOUS alignment smarts that could
provide far better figures for you.  Chuck, specifically, is in good shape,
'cause the folks at Custom Alignment really Know What Works, both generally
and with Panteras specifically, and will probably have optimal specs in-hand
when he rolls in the door.