Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 19:15:57 +0000
From: Steve Liebenow {[email protected]}
Subject: Re: 351C Flywheel
To: Multiple recipients of list {[email protected]}

Gary, Gary, Gary,
Put the train back on the track!
Ever look at the partnumber on a 351C flywheel......? do so and look it up at 
your Ford dealership.....  take note at how many applications used it..... 

OK. Twist my arm.  Partnumber, not casting number(!), usually stamped on 
back(?) or front, depending on view. OK, stamped on the NON-Friction side is a 
C7TE-A(?). For those of you that paid attention to my article on part number 
decoding, you will know that this was released for a 67 Truck...... 

You'll find these in 67 and up Mustangs, Cougars, Comets, Fairlanes, Galaxies, 
Trucks, with small blocks from 289 to 351 W & C.  A small block is a small 
block in this particular case. This is the larger diameter of the small block 
flywheels and will accept the larger clutch discs. Some of the earlier 
versions only used 10" discs. 

Remember, on the engine stuff, L-M didn't do anything special. Think crate 
motor..... unbolt it from the crate, put on DeT specific mounts, drop it into 
a Pantera..... 

Only time you should need to rebalance, is if you've done something internally 
different to your motor, like change rods or perhaps rod bolts.... lighter 
pistons etc.  For a temporary shot like this guy is doing with a stock 
motor.... it would be wasted $$$ 


Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 22:07:18 +0000
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re:  Clutch cylinders
To: Multiple recipients of list {[email protected]}

Roger, I wonder what the inner swept area is in your hydraulic slave? I've 
been running a Tilton hydraulic throwout for 5 or so years, and it's easier 
than stock to release with a stock bore clutch master. I recently changed to a 
Girling clutch master (approx. 3/4" bore); maybe your easiest solution is to 
change to a smaller than stock bore Girling clutch master (since you're in 
Jolly Old England) rather than any of those other schemes. You ARE running a 
stock clutch master cylinder here, aren't you? Keep me informed, please.  J 
DeRyke 


Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 23:53:39 +0000
From: [email protected] (Rodney Steffen)
Subject: clutch master removal - update
To: Multiple recipients of list {[email protected]}

Thanks to all who responded. Here is what I found; after removing the fluid
fitting, clevis pin, and two bolts, there is nothing holding the master
cylinder in place - EXCEPT - the rubber bellows covering the pushrod and
external spring!  It's base fits between the opening in the bulkhead and
the master cylinder, and when new probably has adequate clearance.  After
26 years of exposure to brake fluid, the rubber softens and swells, the
aluminum corrodes, and the result is - stuck.  BTW, the bolts are not
captive, free to turn, and a devil to get a socket on the heads under the
dash - requiring an assistant.  Removing the clevis pin first helps, but
not much.  I finally got it out by pushing the bolts back with a pin punch,
far enough so that the master cylinder could rotate, applying some WD-40,
and grabbing the master cylinder with a big vice grips, twisting and
pulling it out.  The bellows was deteriorated and torn, and the external
spring had rusted and shattered into 6 pieces; both found a new home in my
trash can.

Still hoping to rebuild the stock master cylinder, I loosened the lock nut
behind the clevis, and counted the turns needed to remove the clevis.  The
push rod is captive behind a circular disk, held in place by an oddly
shaped inside snap ring, so it will not come out without removing the snap
ring and disk (unless it is broken or badly worn).  Upon removing the snap
ring, the internal spring may push the piston out with some force, so be
prepared for flying parts.  What really astonished me was what I found
inside the master cylinder.

Nothing - no rust, no pits, smooth bore, shiny piston, perfectly intact
spring.  I did find a good deal of "grit", which I assume is rust, but I
don't know where it comes from.  The fluid line is copper, brass, or copper
clad steel.  Hard to imagine that this grit worked it's way up from the
slave cylinder, but I suppose it's possible.

Anyway, the seals were shot.  The bore is too small for a brake cylinder
hone, so I used a brass gun barrel brush for a 12 gauge shotgun (perfect)
to clean it out.  The rebuild kit recommended earlier on this forum - Bap
Geon #26-06300 - is correct, but they are history.  It crosses to EIS
#C7679 and Beck Arnley #071-5771.  I had a hard time locating either one,
but finally found the Beck Arnley kit.  Only two of the five parts in the
kit fit, but luckily the important ones.  Pay attention to the orientation
of the rear seal on the piston; the "cup" side must be installed facing
inward, toward the fluid.  The front seal appears to be symmetrical, and
can be intalled either way.  Also, cast into the master cylinder body is
"BENDITALIA 1409346" (Italian Bendix?), and on the other side is cast "7
4  L  2".  Any clues, anyone??

"Assembly is the reverse order of disassembly".  How many times have you
read this?  After cleaning, painting, replacing seals, etc. etc., I omitted
the external spring and bellows (they wern't doing anything before I took
it apart).  I installed the refurbished master cylinder and bled the system
of air, filling with new fluid.

WOW!  What a difference!  My car does not have the clutch pedal effort
reducing kit; now I know why it was fitted.  OOOF!  I can shift into
reverse without having to shift into first - first.  No more gear grinding,
and I haven't even adjusted all of the slack out of it yet.  Major
Improvement!


Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 21:24:38 +0000
From: JDeRyke {[email protected]}
Subject: Re:  Early clutch wear
To: Multiple recipients of list {[email protected]}

{{ I have another burning question. My mechanic informs me that my clutch is 
   beginning to wear. While test driving it before installing new shocks and 
   springs, he noticed the clutch engaged quite early during clutch pedal 
   depression. There is no more room for adjustment.}} 

Ray, you have a late '73 which has (or should have) a compound over-center
linkage under the dash, for 'force reduction'. This linkage wears and
introduces much slop between pedal & clutch. And, clutch master cylinders have
been known to 'bypass' pressure while not leaking externally. The Pantera
clutch system was marginal when brand-new; after umpteen thousand miles, you
can imagine. Fixes: there are new masters, new and long-throw slaves, thinner
clutch plates etc. Whatever you do, have your mechanic get it fixed such that
you can shift it w/no synchro or gear grinding. Transaxles are essentially
unrebuildable by normal mechanics; the last bill I saw for an overhaul was for
around $4000 (replacements are above $5000), done only in a few places in the
US.  J DeRyke


Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 14:35:58 +0000
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re:  Pilot bearing and clutches
To: Multiple recipients of list {[email protected]}

{{Can i use a clutch destined for a Mustang or must I have a special clutch 
  intended for the Pantera. If so, does anyone know the difference in these 
  clutches. Clutches for plain old Mustangs are fine with two provisions: -1-
  the clutch itself must NOT have external bobweights for centrifugal loading. 
  If it does, it WILL machine out and maybe crack the inside of your expensive 
  bellhousing! -2- the disc thickness is critical. A discount-store clutch 
  disc might be so thick that your release mechanism won't allow the clutch to 
  release at all. Our vendors have researched this stuff; I suggest you use 
  them, or be prepared to do some precision measurements and possible re-
  machining of your brand-new parts before installing them. And replace the 
  throwout bearing & pilot bearing as a routine whenever you do clutch work. 
  Also does anyone have the maufacturer and part number for the pilot bearing. 
  Id like to replace it with a roller bearing.}} 

Roller-bearing pilots are, IMHO, dangerous. The pilot bearing lives in a hot,
heavily-loaded, marginally lubricated area not accessible to normal service.
If a bushing fails, it goes gradually and you'll probably catch it during
routine clutch work. Caged needle (or roller) bearings fail by seizing to the
tranny input shaft, then machining the shaft nose or thrashing out the hole in
your crankshaft, both of which will cost more than a hundred OEM bushings to
fix. Many guys use these roller bearings successfully; I do not, nor do I
recommend them except to people with way more money than is good for them.


Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 15:29:36 +0000
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re:  Throw Out Bearing
To: Multiple recipients of list {[email protected]}

{{I didn't replace it when I had the engine and transaxle out because it 
  looked okay and only had a 18K miles on it.  Damn, now I have to pull the 
  transaxle.  Anyway, is the throwout bearing a special application or a 
  standard part?  Is there a heavy duty version?  Installation tips? }} 

Repeat after me: "I WILL ALWAYS REPLACE THE PILOT BEARING AND THE THROWOUT
BEARING WHENEVER I DISTURB MY TRANSAXLE" simply because it's such a bitch to
re-do it. Welcome to the very large club of people who ignored the foregoing
(I'm a charter member, by the way) OK; which clutch plate are you using? A
diaphragm clutch requires a radius-face throwout bearing while a stock Long-
type clutch plate requires a flat-face throwout. Using the wrong bearing makes
clutch action "notchy". As far as I know, there are no 'heavy-duty' throwout
bearings for Panteras. Moon-man's racing Tilton throwout bearing broke the
ball cage inside the bearing, allowing the balls to stack up on one side of
the races, lock the hydraulic throwout piston, chew the seal to pieces and
wreck a 'bullet-proof' hi-buck assembly. Also, check your new "brass" pilot
bushing with a magnet before you install it. Some "brass" bushings are
apparently being built of really poor metal and are MAGNETIC from all the iron
filings. These cheap, dark-colored foreign-made pilot bushings can & will scar
up the nose of your expen$ive ZF clutch input shaft. J DeRyke


Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 23:57:25 +0000
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re:  Re: Throw Out Bearing
To: Multiple recipients of list {[email protected]}

{{So the question is (a little help Jack?), did the new, thicker clutch plate 
  move these arms out to where they hit the bell housing?}} 

No, probably not; a Pantera-specific clutch plate will not even HAVE such
weights on the lever arms. Those are the infamous clutch lever "bob-weights" I
talked about earlier this week on the List. You're lucky you only got a
slightly weaker bellhousing out of this rather than a smashed one that could
maybe be tediously rewelded. You'd have done better to have your clutch guy
swap for weightless levers (commonly available & easy to swap) and leave the
bellhousing alone, IMHO. J DeRyke


Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 14:16:41 +0000
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re:  Re: Throw Out Bearing
To: Multiple recipients of list {[email protected]}

{{What is a "your clutch guy" anyway?

In the SF Bay area, we have a shop called "Bay Cities Friction" that rebuilds
clutches, re-lines clutch discs and brake shoes/pads (for rarer machines).
They re-do Scheifer flywheels etc. The chief there is "Friction Phil" and he's
been the authority  on clutches & brake materials for over 25 years. I assumed
this wasn't unique....

I still wonder if the thicker clutch moves the arms closer?,...??.}}

A thicker clutch plate will move the whole assembly backward toward the
bellhousing, as would an aluminum flywheel (thicker flywheel flange). The
bellhousing always bolts up to the back of the block- a fixed point- while
stuff fastened to the end of the crank can vary. And on a Pantera, there's not
much margin for non-stock bolts, thick clutch surfaces and oversized discs. J
DeRyke


Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 13:23:23 +0000
From: John Parsons {[email protected]}
Subject: Re: Throw Out Bearing
To: Multiple recipients of list {[email protected]}

Pilot bearings are my specialty!(grin)  You can buy new, self lubricating, 
phosphor/bronze(I believe) pilot bearings at Chief auto parts for 99c each. 
just ask for the one that fits 1971 Ford mustang with 351c motor. John P 


Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 14:37:17 +0000
From: Asa Jay Laughton {[email protected]}
Subject: PCNC Tech Session story 3
To: Multiple recipients of list {[email protected]}

What tech session would be complete without a major assembly project.
In this case it was Bill Santos clutch.

Now the story has it that Bill was experiencing some small problems with
his clutch at Vegas.  That was almost three months ago.  He kept driving
the car, the clutch still worked, the gears still worked, but there was
that nagging feeling like something was wrong.  So Bill brought the car
to the tech session and decided it was time to change it.

He backed it into Rogers garage and had a swarm of folks buzzing all around 
it.  With wrenches in hand, he and about two or three others dove in and 
started pulling the ZF.  Now THIS is what I came for.  I had seen the photos 
of Mad Dog's ZF pulling party, with Curt, D-Mann and all those folks, and had 
wanted to experience it first hand to see how it went. 

Now those who remember how difficult it is to pull a tranny out of a
front engine car, will relate to my awe.  Typically you start by getting
exhuast out of the way, draining the tranny, getting lines out of the
way, diconnecting linkage, etc.   All from underneath the car, typically
on jack stands, with hardly any room to work.  Once you get the thing
unbolted, it's a virtual nightmare to get the thing balanced on a jack
or heaved on your chest to get it out from under the car.  What a pain.
A ZF in a Pantera on the other hand..... is a breeze.

We started by diconnecting the half-shafts from the ZF, hmmm, we can get
to those bolts from up here.  In fact, everything came loose from the
engine compartment, except the two starter nuts, and the splash sheild.
The A/C condensor needs to be removed from the back panel and swung out
of the way.  We used a bungee cord and tied it down over a fender, using
a fender cover of course.  The clutch slave can be diconneted at the
linkage and hung out of the way as well.  The center wheel well support
bracket comes out,  the linkage slips off at the transaxle and the
mounts simply unbolt.  Once the bolts to the engine are loose, in this
case, it took three of us, and we just lifted the tranny right out of
the trunk.  How simple can you get?

Now we'll pause here for the clarrification of a small story, the two
lower bolts in the ZF that hold the bell housing.  The bellhousing on a
ZF has about 8 bolts that hold it to the transaxle, 6 are on the outside
, and 2 are on the inside.  You can't get to the two on the inside
unless you pull the bellhousing with the tranny.  But if you have those
two bolts out, from a previous pulling party, you don't have to take the
bell housing with the ZF when you pull it.  These are also the two bolts
that have been known to "back out" and start hitting the pressure plate.

So here we are, Ed has the two bolts in the bellhousing.  They are
tight, and have not caused a problem  He talks with many many folks
about the pluses and negative about having or not having the bolts
installed when he re-assembles the transaxle.  To make a long story
short, he decides not to put in the lower two bolts from the inside.
This will allow him to pull the ZF in the future without having to take
the bell housing with it.  It also prevents them from backing out into
the clutch pressure plate assembly.

Okay, we have the tranny out and we start looking at the clutch.  Well,
it looks a little worn, let's take it apart and get a better look.  As
they remove the pressure plate, something starts becoming obvious.
Aren't there supposed to be damper springs in the clutch plate?  There's
5 slots for them here, where did the springs go?  A quick check of the
pressure plate assembly shows it's got a few more springs than it should
have, kinked up, jammed in, and basically causing a nuisance.  It took a
screwdriver and a hammer in some cases to get them out.  Once we had all
the stray springs out of the pressure plate, we managed to account for
all springs missing from the pressure plate, except for two.  We figure
they must have gone flying out the bellhousing access hole.

The clutch was shot, the springs were gone, the metal portion cracked
and the friction surface worn.  The pressure plate was heat stressed,
the levers were worn and no telling what the jammed springs did.  The
flywheel was heat stressed as well and would require maching or
replacement.  Pantera Factory support to the rescue.  Larry stock came
in with all the parts, including a new throwout bearing, which Bill
needed as well.  We took the parts out of the boxes and lined them all
up on the floor.  Hmmmmm....  something wrong here, the pressure plate
sits over the pressuer plate mounting holes in the flywheel, we'll never
get it bolted down that way.  Hey Larry???

Larry jumped into a Pantera and was off.  Now I don't know how far away
Larry's shop is, but he was determined not to let anyone get stranded at
Rogers overnight.  (there ended up being one car but that's another
story).  He was gone for quite some time so Bill took the opportunity to
clean the tranny, the bellhousing, and all the other parts.  We noticed
an oil leak at the back of the pan too.  It was obviously not coming
from the rear main seal, it was the oil pan gasket.  Well, not being
ones wanting to pull an oil pan, we decided to short cut it.  They took
brake clean and cleaned the back end of the pan and engine until it was
spotless.  They then took some good white silicon (looked like the
bathtub kind) and they slobbered a big bead across the whole back end of
the pan.  Lick your finger and smooth it out.... viola!!  Nice and
sealed.  It looked a little strange seeing that white bead in the middle
of all the blue and black, but hey... it works.

Larry gets back and he's got parts out the kazoo.  He brings in no less
than three different pressure plates, clutches and flywheels.  With the
assitance of (insert name of person I forget here) we get it all figured
out and start putting a flywheel on.  Well, they seem to have it all
under control and I'm itching to find another project, so I go out and
start helping Tom Padula.  They guys in the garage get the new clutch
put in, the tranny in and the car ready to test drive in about an hour,
or maybe it was two.

Bill gets it out, and varooooom down Roger's driveway he goes.  After
some time gone, when I was starting to think things may not have gone
well, here comes Bill back up the driveway, driving his Pantera with big
grin on his face.  Another satisified customer.

I found out that day just how easy it is to service a clutch on a
Pantera, how easy it is to pull the ZF, practically a one person job
until you need to lift it out.  I also learned how a clutch can fail and
still work, how important it is to have the right parts, and most
importantly....   How great it is to be a member of PCNC and to have as
many friends as there were there that day.

I can't remember any of the names of people that worked on Bill's car,
they deserve a lot of credit and perhaps someone can fill us in on who
helped.  This to me was the best job of the day, it certainly took the
greatest amount of time, and created a lot of satisfaction.


Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 14:15:22 +0000
From: Dan Jones {[email protected]}
Subject: PCNC Tech Session story 3 - Reply
To: Multiple recipients of list {[email protected]}

My transaxle noise that I thought might be the throw out bearing turned
out to be a pressure plate problem as well.  I pulled the transaxle Saturday
and one of the pressure plate fingers was loose and would rattle around
an hit the throw out bearing every so often.  Closer inspection of the
plate revealed it was a rebuilt unit (clutch was new and undamaged) with
three different bolts, none of which were hardened.

I spoke with my Dad's tranny guy and he said not to trust a rebuilt pressure
plate from an auto parts store.  He's seen too many of them come apart.
So I ordered a new one from PPC (in Colorado) which will be here this
weekend.  A couple more weeks and I may actually be able to retrieve my
Pantera from Ohio.  This driving 800+ miles to get a day or two of wrenching
in is getting old.


Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 14:05:16 +0000
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re:  Re: Throw Out Bearing
To: Multiple recipients of list {[email protected]}

{{Pushing the clutch in takes the spring pressure from the plate off of the 
  disk and thus the flywheel surface, but there still can be brushing or 
  slight rubbing contact between the disk and flywheel.}} 

Remember for every action there is an opposite reaction: you take pressure off
the clutch and transfer 100% of that pressure to the crankshaft thrust bearing
surface, the smallest. most heavily-loaded plain bearing in the engine. During
rebuilds, I've seen engines with the entire thrust surface GONE from the main
bearing and massive wear on the crank itself....J DeRyke


Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 13:35:36 +0000
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re:  Information regarding exploded clutch.
To: Multiple recipients of list {[email protected]}

The clutch pressure plate is also cast iron as is the flywheel and can cause 
nearly as much damage as an exploded flywheel. All it takes is a slight 
imperfection at very high rpms to crack cast iron. In the '60s, Barney Navarro 
was trying to develop the world's first 'scatter-shield" which by the way is 
mandatory in US drag-racing (maybe Swedish, too). A slight nick in the 
flywheel OR clutch pressure-plate surface was all it took to fail them at 8000 
rpm or above. Navarro found that it was impossible to contain a flywheel 
explosion with a cast-aluminum scattershield even though he went up to 2" in 
thickness! Clutch explosions were a LITTLE easier due to the smaller pieces, 
but eventually they gave up on cast aluminum and from that day, all US 
scattershields have been built of welded 1/4"-5/16" thick cold-rolled steel! 
The key here is extremely high rpms; regardless of what failed or how, there 
is no rational reason for anyone to spin a 351C engine that high EXCEPT by 
mistake. And some mistakes are more costly than others- the shop is liable for 
100% of the damage IMHO. J DeRyke 


Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 10:49:58 +0000
From: [email protected]
Subject: Port Plates and Clutches
To: Multiple recipients of list {[email protected]}

As for clutches, no one else does this, but it has worked perfectly for me for 
many years: 

I take the throwout bearing carrier and shorten it by .300 inch.  Any 
competent machinst can do this, just make sure the press-fit is reatained on 
the newly shortened end, so the throwout bearing will stay in place.  NOW, 
you can use any stock Ford 11" clutch parts.  I use a full metallic (6-puck) 
clutch with a long style pressure plate and McLeod aluminum flywheel.  I also 
use the Pantera East long throw slave.  I just don't trust the annular 
throwout bearings, as a simple leak or adjustment requires R&R of transaxle, 
which I find a pain.  When you put things together, just be sure the throwout 
bearing will retract from the pressure plate fingers (it will feel loose from 
the lever or you can see this through the inspection port) and the clutch has 
about .030 clearance when disengaged.  It will be a beartrap, but will not 
slip and will not destroy syncros.