Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998
From: JDeRyke {[email protected]}
Subject: Re:  Windshield removal/replacement
Sender: [email protected]

That's the way all the Pantera suppliers recommend- cut the old gasket. A new 
gasket costs around $100 nowadays, I think. But you can jack around for hours 
trying to unfold the old gasket from the windshield edge, especially if your 
windshield didn't leak to start with. The only ones that don't leak are those 
that have a pound or so of silicone rubber between the glass and the body or 
gasket! The new gasket & glass go back in quite easily but you'll still 
probably have to caulk the thing  to seal it. Check the metal on the bottom of 
the windshield channel for corrosion, and don't be too surprised at holes 
clear through the channel into the car. Now you know why your feet were 
getting wet last rainstorm! J DeRyke 


Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998
From: Mike Drew {[email protected]}
Subject: Re: Windshield removal/replacement
Sender: [email protected]

}would appreciate any real life hints on the SAFE removal and replacement of 
}my 74 L windshield.  Need to do this in preparation of painting car. Talked 
}to one fellow today who said to disregard the tech manual - said to cut the 
}gasket from the outside and remove, then to assemble the glass, new seal and 
}trim as a unit and THEN re-install.  HELP! 

}}This was discussed at length several months ago on The List, check
}}the archives.

I'm glad you're planning on doing the windshield R&R as part of a repaint.  
Most people who take their Panteras to Fred's Quick-eee Lube And Windshield 
Repair are in for a rude shock, 'cause when the old windshield comes out, 
there's usually rust around the frame, often quite extensive, and it should be 
properly repaired before the new glass goes in. 

I've heard from multiple sources that a long-standing 'flaw' with the Pantera 
is that the opening in the body for the windshield is actually too large (or 
the glass too small)  Gary Hall says that if you drive over railroad tracks 
with your fingers resting against the top or bottom of the winshield, you can 
actually feel it moving in the gasket.  This is at least part of the reason 
that they tend to leak so much. 

When my windshield was removed from the car, most of the lip which held it in 
was suffering from varying degrees of rot.  The correct fix is to zizz out the 
rusted lip, fabricate and weld in a new one.  At the same time, the body man 
should build up the walls of the windshield opening (with a bead of weld?) to 
effectively shrink the size of the overall opening.  Then, the gasket should 
be gorped in with tons of black silicone. 

Don't know whether it's better to put the gasket in and then cram the glass 
in, or put the gasket and trim on the glass and then drop them in together 
(although I'd guess the latter is better; I've heard of shops breaking 
windshields while trying to install them!) 


Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998
From: [email protected] (George P. Dausch IV)
Subject: Re: glueing the windshield in
Sender: [email protected]

}I have a question.  I desire to modify my windshield opening by welding up 
}the opening to make it smaller and then glue in the windshield instead of the 
}rubber gasket and metal trim.  My question is, Will this fixing of the 
}windshield to the chasis cause too much stress from the chasis to be 
}transmitted into the windshield and break it.?  I dont want to really break 
}my windshield.  By glueing it in, I can eliminate the ugly gasket and just 
}have a neat little trim ring and flush window. 

I couple of months ago I started a discussion about the windshield gasket, 
because I was going to have a flush one made as you are describing.  Someone 
said to call Cook's, which I did, and they have one, app. $150.  That's why I 
discontinued the die project and having them extruded. 

Over the years, I have glued two windshields in.  One was fine, but the other 
cracked one day when I jacked up the vehicle on the front corner. That's 
probably one of several reasons that they don't glue them in. 

I've also read the discussions about the opening being too large.  I have not 
yet removed my windshield or looked at a new gasket, but subject to the gasket 
design, the opening may very well be the correct size.  Review carefully. 

In conclusion, looking at the horsepower you're running and the stress cracks 
that we all have, I'm not sure that I'm going to make my windshield a 
structural member. 


Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998
From: JDeRyke {[email protected]}
Subject: Re:  glueing the windshield in
Sender: [email protected]

An excellent suggestion. But as far as I know, NO ONE has ever tried glueing 
in a windshield so you are in uncharted waters, Dave! Be very sure the metal 
surface is flat and use fresh windshield putty (scientific name: acky-pukky). 
The stuff gets harder and less compliant with age, so body-flex might be more 
important later. Incidently, this putty also develops water-wormholes just 
like the unsiliconed stock gasket does. GM began using it in '65 and Ford a 
few years later. Write me a description and any results if you try it, please. 
And investigate whether it would be nicer looking to have an oversized glass 
made (or adapt some other car's windshield) rather than welding the hole up. 
You'll have about 1 inch all the way around the stock glass to fill up with 
something. J DeRyke 


Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 19:26:11 +0000
From: Mike Drew {[email protected]}
Subject: Re: Pantera Glass & seals
To: Multiple recipients of list {[email protected]}

Frank asked about replacing the windshield and side windows.

This topic was beaten into the ground several months ago; I suggest you
check the archives for varying points of view.

One important point:  I would never expect to just drive your Pantera
down to Windshield World and have them pop the old one out and put the
new one in.  Virtually guaranteed to find rust (sometimes extensive) in
the lip which holds the windshield in.  Therefore, you should plan on
having the work done by a shop that has extensive metalwork experience;
then they can remove the old one, fabricate and weld in any necessary
metal, and then install the new one.

Regarding which windshield to buy, there are two basic options out
there, OEM and aftermarket.

The OEM glass is made in Germany by Siglia.  Unfortunately, the Germans
sell it to the Italians (where taxes and import duty is charged), then
the Italians sell it to Wilkinson (with their markup, plus U.S. import
duty), then Wilkinson sells to the vendors (with his markup), then they
sell to you (with THEIR markup!)

By the time you get an OEM windshield, you can pay upwards of $1400!
(Although sometimes the vendors have them on sale for less than $1000.)

If you ask the folks who sell OEM windshields, they will tell you that
the quality FAR surpasses that of the aftermarket units.  However, it's
very common to see Panteras with original windshields that have "fogged
up", normally starting at the bottom corners.  Looks funky, but normally
doesn't interfere with function.  How new OEM windshields will hold up
over time is anyone's guess.

Some aftermarket windshields used to be made in the U.S. and sometimes
you can find NOS glass, but most of the aftermarket Pantera windshields
are coming in from Brazil I believe.  Sometimes these incorporate an FM
antenna built into the glass.  I have noticed that these windshields
tend to have visible distortion at the edges where the glass curves to
meet the A-pillar, the outside six inches or so.  I drove a car with an
aftermarket windshield to Vegas last year and found that aspect rather
annoying.  (Don't remember if it was a Hall windshield or not.)

The aftermarket windshields are reportedly somewhat smaller in length
and width than factory, and they're thinner too, so they supposedly
don't fit as well.  Again, this report comes mostly from the vendors
selling the OEM glass.  They condemn the aftermarket units (which go for
$700 or so from Hall Pantera, and can sometimes be picked up for as
little as $200 by an enterprising windshield shop) as being cheap.

If you talk to Gary Hall, he'll tell you his glass equals or surpasses
the quality of factory glass, with the additional feature of the antenna
built in.  He refutes the charges the OEM vendors put out, and in fact
he believes the OEM glass is just more expensive, not better.

So who do you believe?  There's plenty of people running around with 
replacement windshields (some factory, some aftermarket) and I haven't heard 
too many people complaining about either one.  So ultimately it's down to 
which vendors you believe, and how important originality is to you. 

Me, I found an OEM windshield in Wally Baldyga's barn in West Suffield,
CT and got a good deal on it, so I went that route.  I suggest you check
out the cars in Las Vegas (you ARE coming to Vegas, right?) sit in some
cars with aftermarket glass and see if you like it.

When replacing the windshield, it's a good idea to replace the gasket at
the same time.  Again, you're faced with the OEM vs. aftermarket issue,
with many of the same arguments as listed above.  I don't know how the
OEM price compares to aftermarket, though.

I DO know that the price on factory gaskets went through the roof a few
years ago when they became unavailable for a time.  Wilkinson had to
belly up to the bar and order something like 1000 gaskets in order for
the factory to get them reproduced.  So he's got bunches on his shelf,
but even though the price came down slightly after the new ones became
available, the current price is far higher than the price several years
ago when the NOS units were still available.

Finally, remember that he's offering a discount on all purchases over
$1K; presumably a factory windshield and gasket would take you over that
hump, and the discount would have to be factored into the final price.

Regarding side windows:  I don't know if these are even available
anymore.  You'll just have to phone Wilkinson and Hall and see what they
have to offer.

Rear windows are available, and Larry Stock (taking advantage of his
high-tech plastics business) has several different plastic varients
available as well.  Price on the plastic units is high, approaching that
of glass, but with the advantages of greatly reduced weight, and also
they're easy to drill holes into (to run a roll cage through, etc.)


Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 15:12:21 +0000
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re:  Double Rear Window Glass
To: Multiple recipients of list {[email protected]}

{{Also thought of putting two small holes in the glass. Normally they would be 
  taped over, but if water got inside, they could be used to blow air through 
  to dry it out. Sound like a plan? Any other ideas?}} 

The only water that should get in there is condensation; I'd instead put a
couple of tiny, unobtrusive silica-gel packets like from electronics shipments
in between and leave the holes undrilled. My 2�- J DeRyke


Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 15:02:56 +0000
From: Thomas Padula {[email protected]}
Subject: Re:  Double-paned rear window
To: Multiple recipients of list {[email protected]}

} This concept of double-paning the rear window seems
} like at waste of time and money!
} They double-pane residential glass for thermal insulation,
} NOT sound insulation.  Seems to me that your effort can
} be better spent insulating the firewall.

Insulating the firewall does help, and doesn't take a huge amount of
time, just a lot of fiddling and trimming to get the insulation just
right before attaching it.

However, as one who heard the scream of twin superchargers all the
way home from Vegas, I'm looking into double-paned glass anyway. Earplugs
help somewhat, but even a 30dB reduction from 110dB still leaves you
hearing an 80dB whine for hours.

I insulated the firewall before Vegas. It knocked off about 12dB from the
lower end of the spectrum, about 6dB from the higher end. I used a dB meter
for overall level, and a portable DAT for capturing the sound, which I then
analyzed for spectrum to see the improvement. (Hey, I do audio for a
living, so I'm a _professional_ audio weenie...) It helped most at cruise -
kills a lot of the pounding - but didn't do a huge amount for the
blower noise.

Any thoughts from the gallery on quieting supercharger whine? Forest
Goodhart's car has a different drive system and is somewhat quieter, but
using a stethoscope on mine revealed most of my noise coming from the blower
housing itself (although the belts were pretty noisy, too).

-tom, who _will_ use a dB meter to see if the glass really helps or not


Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 18:51:34 +0000
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Windshields
To: Multiple recipients of list {[email protected]}

{{The windshield in my 72 Pantera is starting to show sand marks,chips,etc.. 
  My question is: Are windshield for Panteras from another car or were they 
  made just for Panteras? }} 

It is a Pantera windshield only.  You can find windshields for sale for
Panteras in Hemmings Motor News.  I have seen them for as little as $350.
Shop around.


Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 19:59:02 +0000
From: David Nunn {[email protected]}
Subject: Re: Windshields
To: Multiple recipients of list {[email protected]}

Be careful buying "jobber" windshields in Hemmings. Some of them fit VERY
BADLY. If it is made in South America or Mexico, chances are good that it is
not even close to OEM. One of the problems with these cheap windshields is
in the curvature of the glass. They distort a fair amount in these curved
areas. Pantera East has jobber windshields made by Sigla in Germany. The
quality is top notch. Sigla is now the OEM manufacturer for DeTomaso (as
well as Porsche, Mercedes, BMW etc.).


Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 20:25:49 +0000
From: [email protected] (George P. Dausch IV)
Subject: Re: Windshields
To: Multiple recipients of list {[email protected]}

As answered by Jim Demick, it's a Pantera application only.  If you do a
search on the archives, you'll find a lot.  However, having just R&R'd
mine three times until I'm 90% happy, I think there are other things to
consider before price.

Some of last years posts talked about brand (mfr), tint (at the top),
fogging at the edges, and about size. Nothing seemed relevant at the
time, and I just stored this away in the old memory bank.  However, now I
understand.

The old windshields seen particularly susceptible to fogging at the
edges.  It creeps up  until the first 1-2" are all foggy on the
perimeter.  Maybe a brand issue, I don't know.  Some of the windshields
come with the top few inches tinted.  Don't know which.

There was also talk about some of the aftermarket windshields being too
small.  This I know about.  Mine leaked, and after removal, is what
caused the flange to prematurely rust.  After repairing the bad areas, I
planned to put an aftermarket flush mount gasket in to eliminate the
hideous trim that has never fit right on any Pantera I've ever looked at.
They're all various degrees of not conforming to the windshield frame.

I bought a flush mount gasket from one of the vendors (just miter the
corners to fit), and gave it to the windshield installer.  He laughed for
awhile, told me no f--king way, and said the windshield didn't even fit
right to begin with.  I told him to put it in with the old gasket, he
did, and he went away.

I drove the car home, took it out, and decided to become a windshield
installer.  If you look at the flush mount (or the original) gasket in
cross section, it is designed for the windshield to overlap the flange a
little bit, separated by a little bit of the rubber gasket.  However, it
was (is) possible for me to drop my windshield through the opening.  Mine
may be an aftermarket, I don't know.

Had I not just completed the repaint, I would have welded in an
additional 1/4" flange all around, structurally glued the windshield in,
and used a face rubber moulding only.
However, since it was too late for that plan, I set the windshield with
the flush mount gasket, got it to barely cover all the glass edge, used
four tubes of structural silicone to fill the internal voids (took 2
hours).  Looks beautiful, does not leak.  (The doors do).


Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 21:08:49 +0000
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re:  Re: Windshields
To: Multiple recipients of list {[email protected]}

Just out of curiosity, what kind of windshield do you have?  The OEM units are 
by Siglia and should fit well, with no distortion in the corners.  Some of the 
aftermarket units have radio antennas in the center, there is distortion 
around the sides, and they are rumored to be undersize.  It sounds like yours 
is pretty undersized! 


Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 21:52:24 +0000
From: [email protected] (George P. Dausch IV)
Subject: Re: Windshields
To: Multiple recipients of list {[email protected]}

"Viracon
Safety Float
Tinted"

Several series of numbers thereafter, no built in antenna.
No tremendous perimeter fogging, just beginning.
No appreciable distortion, not an issue.

FYI, mine was within several thousandths of the same size as the opening.
Not enough to drop through, but not enough to rest above it either.  You
rely solely of the resiliency of the gasket to preclude a "push-through".
Great at 50mph, keep the windows closed above a hundred without the
multiple tubes of structural silicone.


Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 19:31:08 +0000
From: "D.and F.Terry" {[email protected]}
Subject: Re: SV: Windshields -new ones!
To: Multiple recipients of list {[email protected]}

} Windscreens are all the same throughout Pantera production (well,
} dimensions are the same anyway.)  Later cars (i.e. GT5) had more aggressive
} tinting, grey instead of green I think.

FWIW
My GT5-S has a "Circusive" brand windshield with a heavy green tinting band 
about 5 inches wide at the top and no built in antenna. My pre-L '72 also has 
a "Circusive" brand windshield with no tint. It has started to cloud at the 
lower edge which seems to be the expected thing. I hate to take it out as it 
is tight fitting with no leaks but I'll spring for a new one just to get rid 
of the clouding.