Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 15:50:16 -0500
From: Darius Rudis {[email protected]}
Subject: Pantera on track

}If anyone has read about its "unique" handling, you really can't describe
}it until you have felt it for yourself.  When driving around a corner,
}you first get this understeer condition and swear the car is never going
}to turn, then all of a sudden you are chasing the back end to keep it
}behind you.  Not very good track manners.

Well put.  Thats what I would say.  Its tough to drive near the limits,
cause whwn you get close, you overdo it, and are left waiting for the
dust to settle before going onto the track again.

There is someone(?) that runs their Pantera at the SAAC-MCR events. 
http://www.saac-mcr.com/pastevnt I wish I knew his name so he could write 
something up and we could all share.... 


Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 14:56:03 -0500 (EST)
From: Dan Malek {[email protected]}
Subject: Pantera on track

} Ok, burning question time!
}
} How good a track car to they REALLY make???

All right, now I am hooked into the discussion :-).

They need lots of modifications for many reasons.  Structurally, they should 
be beefed up.  Personally, I would also want some protection. You drive these 
with your body pasted against the paper-thin door.  I have seen too many 
wrecked Panteras, and there is little of center section of the car left. 

The driving position sucks.  The pedals are in a very small area not used by 
the wheel well, and they are shifted far to the right.  There is no place for 
the left foot, except on the clutch pedal, which is more in line with your 
right foot.  The steering wheel is off center as well. Since I have some track 
experience, this is the first area I would have to drastically rebuild before 
I would feel comfortable driving the car on the track.  The clutch requires 
tremendous effort, and would quickly get tiring as well. 

If anyone has read about its "unique" handling, you really can't describe it 
until you have felt it for yourself.  When driving around a corner, you first 
get this understeer condition and swear the car is never going to turn, then 
all of a sudden you are chasing the back end to keep it behind you.  Not very 
good track manners. 

I have seen Panteras suitable for (and on) tracks, that have solved all of 
these problems.  First, build a real roll cage.  Second, build a useful driver 
compartment.  Third, replace all of the stock suspension with racing 
components, adjust properly, and carefully select a set of tires. Although the 
stock suspension is coil-over shock with very adjustable A-frames, it is just 
not sufficiently adjustable for track use.  Oh yeah, the stock brakes are not 
the best, and must be replaced for track use. Now you see why people lose 
interest.  This car doesn't respond well to minor changes for track use. 

The stock Pantera is nice on the street, except it is unforgiving to driving 
mistakes.  It would survive a few track laps, and the engine would make up on 
the straights for what the car lacks in the corners, but I don't think it 
would be fun very long.  Later models ('74+) corrected some of this from the 
factory, but at a price ($$, mechanically, or cosmetically) many people don't 
want to pay. 

Would I like to have one ready for the track?  You bet!....but I have
about 300 years worth of projects lined up ahead of it right now.....

Of course, there were professionals that tried to race these back in
the mid-70's.  They did so well I can't even remember their names right
now :-).  It _looked_ like it would race well, but never did.


Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 18:31:13 +0000
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re:  understeer
To: Multiple recipients of list {[email protected]}

}I am still in the market for a Pantera, and went for a test-drive this
}weekend.

}}}Good! :})

}I got to drive the Pantera on the freeway.  When I came to the the off ramp 
}(the kind where you end up eastbound if you were heading southbound) I 
}noticed a significant front-end push, even though the turn was pretty well 
}banked.  Is there a possible problem with this car, or am I just used to 
}driving my Mustang (which has a lot of oversteer)? 

}}}Panteras were set up by Ford to have pretty severe understeer, as it was
felt that the average driver wouldn't be able to handle the car if it were set
up more neutrally (as the early '71 cars were.)  Ford engineers did all sorts
of things to encourage understeer, including lenghthening the lower rear
control arms by 1/4 inch, and increasing the size of the front swaybar from
13/16th inch to 7/8th inch (thanks to Tim Tullio for educating me on that this
morning!)

So no, if the car is basically stock it's certainly not unusual to experience
the kind of understeer you report.  The 'fixes' for this condition are well-
known, the principle one being to increase the size of the rear swaybar from
3/4 inch to 7/8 inch (the so-called GTS bar) which is felt by most to be the
best single improvement, dollar for dollar, that can be made to a stock
Pantera.

More radical treatments (such as fooling with spring rates, alignment
settings, etc.) can be introduced, and the car can ultimately be set up to
oversteer, although this is by definition a less-safe condition and one would
have to have truly expert driving skills to push the car to the limit and get
away with it on a consistant basis.

Bottom line is, I wouldn't walk away from an otherwise-fine Pantera just
because it happened to understeer.  Neutral handling is but a phone call and a
few hundred bucks away!

Mike  (whose Pantera neither understeers nor oversteers, since it hasn't been
on the road since 1990!)