Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 15:18:27 +0000
From: Mike Drew {[email protected]}
Subject: Re: 10" Campy I.D.
To: Multiple recipients of list {[email protected]}

}Mike Drew wrote a great article on identifying 7& 8"'s, but 10's have me a 
}little baffled. 

Now, so far I've seen about three different versions of 10" Campys.

}}}I think there have actually been many more than that, as the wheel
has gone in and out of production several times, and has been built by
several different companies (or at least marked as such.)

}The ones that I saw had the large ribs, with no Campagnolo stamped on the 
}rim, however it was stamped inside the pentagon shape.  Is this a late model 
}10"? 

}}}Based on this description, I would say these are the FIRST model wheel.  
The early wheels had pronounced ribs running from the edge of the wheel center 
towards the edge of the rim. 


}The other type I've seen have smaller and even smaller ribs alternating, with 
Campagnolo stamped on the rim. 

}}}All subsequent versions were built like this

}The third version I've seen, in Gary Hall's showroom, was with the larger 
ribs (I think), had Campagnolo stamped on the rim, plus the "JIL" logo also 
stamped on the rim. This I found confusing, why was there a JIL stamp on a 
Campy? I've seen many aftermarket wheels for different cars with the JIL logo 
on them, and I was told that they are a Japanese wheel manufacturer. If this 
were the case, why would it be on an Italian wheel, subcontracting maybe? 

}}}Beats me.  I think the JIL logo is also on my VW Scirocco wheels; I think 
it's probably some international standard mark, i.e. the wheel has been built 
to meet some agreed-upon international specs?  But that's just a guess.  As 
far as I know the wheels are ONLY made in Italy. 

}Also, "Puff Doggy" Antenucci mentioned to me once that he had heard that 10" 
Campys are prone to cracking, is this true, were the larger ribs an attempt to 
correct this? 

}}}The first-generation wheels (with the large ribs) were sand-cast, as were 
the '71-'74 stock wheels.  Apparently (and this is mostly hearsay) the first-
generation 10" wheels weren't as strong as you'd like them to be, and some 
suffered from cracking. 

}Are any of these versions stronger alloy than the others?

}}}Later on (and I don't know when), the production method changed completely.  
Jack DeRyke has a much better grip on this than I do, but apparantly the 
original molds were actually hand-made out of mahogony; these molds had a 
finite lifespan and would wear out.  The second design (without the large 
ribs) was also made in this method for awhile; eventually a mold wore out 
(actually, I heard it physically broke) and the wheels were unavailable for 
awhile. 

Popular demand was great enough that Campy brought them back into production, 
but now went to a new technique of pressure-casting using metal molds.  These 
wheels are reputed to be MUCH stronger and less porus; as a consumer I'd be 
inclined to pay more for newer wheels, although if you're a purist and have an 
early Euro GTS, then I could see you willing to pay more for OLDER big-rib 
wheels (as several people I know did.) 

Somewhere along the line, Campy was purchased outright by the Italian wheel 
manufacturing giant Technomagnesio.  My 10" wheels are marked Campagnolo on 
one side, and Technomagnesio on the other; the original box they came in (I 
bought them new in '89) was marked Technomagnesio. I think my wheels have the 
JIL logo on them as well, but as I haven't SEEN my car in two months, I can't 
remember. :{( 

}If a crack does start to appear, are these rims weldable?

}}}Not by your backyard welder.  I believe there are certain specialized 
aerospace welders who can weld magnesium, but I don't know the specifics, 
whether it has do be done in a vacuum chamber or something. Again, Jack would 
be able to provide more clues on this. 

I think Chuck Engles had some problems with his 10" Campys and had them 
inspected using the Zyglow process (which is used in aviation, and can 
probably be had at most any medium-sized bug-smasher municipal airport 
aircraft repair shop.)  I don't know if they welded his wheels, or just 
inspected them and pronounced them good; I seem to recall he had some repairs 
done years ago, and they're holding up fine. 


}Please fill me with knowledge,

}}}I DON'T know more than I DO know about these things, so consider this
a partial, incomplete picture of the situation at best.  Others
referenced in here, feel free to weigh in with opinions that
support/refute whatever I've said! :})


Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 18:09:25 +0000
From: Dennis Antenucci {[email protected]}
Subject: WHEEL OFFSETS (was:Re: Campy Wheels on the race track)
To: Multiple recipients of list {[email protected]}

Forest & Others,
I got several posts back from folks on offsets and backspacing so I'm gonna 
share those details with you today. Right now we don't have all the quotes 
back from Marsh but they want to work with us and they have a good rep in the 
business. 

Before I give you the wheel numbers keep in mind I collected this info from 
several people. I can't vouch for it's accuracy and that's the idea of sharing 
the spec's with you'all so we can get a sanity check on the numbers. Keep in 
mind that if you know someone that has a set of wheels you like it might be a 
good idea to put them on your car. As has been mentioned several times our 
cars spec's aren't all the same and you can't neccesarily use the one-size-
fits-all philosphy. 

The cost for the Marsh 17" racewheels is gonna be "more" money then what I am 
quoting here for the 15" wheels. Right now  they will provide a 15x8" inch 
wheel for $59/each. You can have the wheels painted black (sorry no powder 
coating available Greg)  or with either a black center and chrome rim or visa 
versa. The 10x15 inch wheel is $89.00 and the same no-cost options apply. The 
wheel offsets I was previously given were: 

8x15 Wheel - 4&5/8 inch backspace with zero offset

10x15 wheel - 6 inch backspace with 2 inch negative offset

Do these numbers look right? I need a sanity check before we start ordering 
wheels! 

P.S. Soon as we get 15" wheels straight we can move onto 17" wheels


Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 23:11:00 +0000
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re:  Campy wheels on the race track
To: Multiple recipients of list {[email protected]}

Cary, I mentioned this characteristic of magnesium castings (age-hardening) a 
while back, and a possible cure. Stresses build up in the casting over time 
but can be relieved to some extent by a mom's-oven-heat treat: 350 degrees for 
about 3 hours, followed by very slow cooling (as slow as you can make it but 
typically overnight). Problem is, this will cause your silver paint to turn 
tan, prompting a repaint afterwards. Oh, and re-read the famous 'no-life' 
paragraph again- it was intended as a compliment to the poor unpaid SDP people 
who wound up spending their off-time not partying or going to shows but 
working for POCA, except no no one knew about it. And this went on for 5 
years! J DeRyke 


Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 01:21:50 +0000
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re:  WHEEL OFFSETS (was:Re: Campy Wheels on the race track)
To: Multiple recipients of list {[email protected]}

Eons ago, I moaned about the cost of 10" Campys ($600 EACH), and one guy in 
the club said that if he was going to run different than stock wheels, he'd 
use forged-aluminum Centerlines, lay a piece of wet fiberglas over his 8" 
Campy and make a mold of the center, then lay up some fiberglas 'centers'. 
Fasten them to the Centerlines with sheet-metal screws and you got a cheap 
lightweight wheel that'l take some abuse without shattering, and from 5 ft 
away, you couldn't tell it was a fake Campy. The only thing is, don't run 
drag-race Centerlines. I've heard the centers crack under high force cornering 
since they're straight-line-only wheels. Food for thought. J DeRyke 


Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 01:10:42 +0000
From: David Doddek {[email protected]}
Subject: Wheel offsets.
To: Multiple recipients of list {[email protected]}

If I remember right from when I measured my wheels, The rear 8 inch campys 
were 5 inch back spacing and the 7 inch fronts were 4.  This would explain why 
from the outside, the front looked the same as the back. 

Now with carefull study, you will find that the front has barely enough room 
to run a 5 inch rear spacing with 15 inch wheels.  At this point, it too wide 
a tire is used on the rim, it is possible for the tire to hit the inner wheel 
well.  It is also possible with a thick rim, the rim will rub on the lower A-
arm.  So an 8 inch wheel is about all that can be run on the front without 
flares. 

The back is a different story.  You can go back an inch before the wheel hits 
the  lower upright pivot.  If you go to 17 inch wheels then you can go back 
another inch and get a 7 inch back spacing.  Any further and the brake lines 
must be modified to clear.  You can go out an inch to the outside before you 
hit on the fender when the tire comes up high.  This means that the back can 
run a 10 inch wide wheel when running 15 inch rims and an 11 inch rim when 
using 17 inch rims and still fit under stock fenders. 

PS, If I can afford them, I will have new wheels at Vegas.  As far as I know 
no other pantera is using this wheel so I will be the first.  I can get what I 
want too.  They make the offsets in 1/8 inch increments and make wheels to 
order. 


Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 16:18:13 +0000
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re:  What came with 10" (Wheels)
To: Multiple recipients of list {[email protected]}

10" rear Campys were a factory OPTION on the GTS in Europe only.  They were
also sold over-the-counter in the USA to vendors.  Never sold as OEM on cars
in the USA, and most Euro cars didn't get them either (including  Euro GTS;
most I've seen still have 7 and 8 inch wheels.)

GT5 used totally different wheels, 10" in front (different style and offset)
and 13" in rear.

Oh, Longchamp GTS also came with Pantera 8" and 10" Campys.


Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 13:58:41 +0000
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re:  Re:  Restoring Campy's
To: Multiple recipients of list {[email protected]}

{{.....the going rate for bead-blasting and powder coat is $50/wheel.  Total 
  cost will probably be less than $10/wheel.....Paint with zinc-chromate then 
  the color of your choice.... Its cheap and easy to do it yourself, it just 
  depends on how much time you want to put into it. }} 

All true, unless there's structural damage that requires welding repair. And
if you go with powder coating, you can ask the coater to do yours last & leave
your wheels in the cure oven overnight. Turns out the annealing temp for
magnesium is about the same as most powder-coaters' cure temp, and all thats
needed is a slow cool-down from 350 degrees. Annealing eliminates internal
stresses in the casting from age, impacts, welding etc. This ought to be free
from most powder coaters. My 2�- J DeRyke


Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 12:17:27 +0000
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bj=F6rn_Carlsson?= {[email protected]}
Subject: Campys, the weights of 7", 8" and 10".
To: Multiple recipients of list {[email protected]}

There some discussions a while ago regarding the weights of Campagnolo rims
but the figures presented were all including rubber. Well, I just checked
out some spare rims and got these figures:

7"  - 6.30 kg ea.
8"  - 7.78 kg ea.
10" - 8.66 kg ea.

The all have two slot design. The 7" and 8" are from mid seventies and the
10" rim was bought new at the first factory reunion -90 so the should be of
the last design (most metal).


Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 20:19:29 +0000
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re:  RE: wheel repair
To: Multiple recipients of list {[email protected]}

{{After 25 years, would this (annealing) be a good thing to do, even if one is
  NOT having a wheel powder coated ?  I'd guess the temp might damage the 
  paint or color of non-powder coated wheels anyway but......}} 

Correct-o! Heating to 350-400 F for at least 1hr followed by slow cooling can
be done in your wife's oven, one wheel at a time. And it WILL turn your
aluminum paint yellowish. Stresses build up in cast wheels from flexing (or
from welding cracks) and should be relieved before they find an internal pore
in the casting and it becomes a crack. J DeRyke


Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 09:25:09 +0000
From: Andy Poling {[email protected]}
Subject: Re: Wheelo
To: Multiple recipients of list {[email protected]}

} I'll say it again just to hear myself talk.  If I had it to do over....I'd 
}buy 17's in the rear and 15's in the front.  I have 16 X 9's in front now.  
}If you plan on lowering your car, you can't get the front with 245 x 45 x 
}16's anywhere near as low as you can the rear.  When you drop the rear down 
}over the 335 X 35 X 17's to the visually bitchen setting, it looks like your 
}car is doing a wheelie. 

Good point.  I knew I wouldn't be lowering my car (other than running no
spring spacers) when I chose my wheels.

Alot of folks also seem to run into problems with the GT5/S airdams scraping
and end up not lowering the front as much due to that too...

Just to throw some numbers out:

With 245/45x16 and 335/35x17 you have about 7mm (1/4") shorter front
sidewalls up front and 1/2" less wheel radius, so my front spindle is about
3/4" lower than my rear spindle.

Note that a 285/50x15 (popular rear size) tire would give you a rear spindle
height of about 13".  You get almost exactly the same spindle height with a
335/35x17.

A 225/50x15 (popular front size) tire would give you about 12" front spindle
height.  A 245/45x16, on the other hand, gives you about 1/3" more spindle
height, while a 245/40x16 (apparently a more popular street tire size) gives
you almost identical spindle height to the 225/50x15.

These are just numbers, of course.  Tires aren't always exactly the size the
manufacturer claims, but I though it might help to compare popular 15" wheel
and tire combos with the 16/17" wheel and tire combos.


Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 09:02:39 +0000
From: David Doddek {[email protected]}
Subject: Re: Lug nuts
To: Multiple recipients of list {[email protected]}

}Lug nut size=standard Ford issue.........can get them anywhere

WRONG buster boy,  Pantera lug nuts are 12mm*1.25 MM  Standard Ford is 1/2".


Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 09:02:22 +0000
From: JDeRyke {[email protected]}
Subject: Re:  Lug nuts
To: Multiple recipients of list {[email protected]}

Ray, the Pantera's wheel lugs are threaded  M12x 1.5, I believe. Want some 
really trick lugnuts? They're the same as several of the Japanese cars use for 
racing, and one place in Oakland sells superlight/superstrong aluminum 7075-T6 
nuts for $5.09 each. Save 3-1/2 lbs of unsprung weight (for $102), just like 
the Porsche racers (but their lugs are a different size). J DeRyke 


Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 16:17:39 +0000
From: Dennis Antenucci {[email protected]}
Subject: RACE WHEEL UPDATE
To: Multiple recipients of list {[email protected]}

Dick Drenske and I are gonna fit the new 15" race wheels to my car tomorrow at 
his shop. The mfg was able to get 5&1/4" backspace on the 8" front wheel which 
Steve Wilkinson believes is optimium for the front end (IE, NO fendor or 
suspension clearance problems). Which is more then what they thought they 
could do (4&7/8" max.) which would not of been enough to get a good fit. 

We'll let you know how the wheels work tomorrow. If all goes well you can 
start ordering the wheels next week!! :-] And we still expect to get info and 
pricing on 16-19" wheels in the next couple weeks. Stay tuned!