Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 10:24:41 -0800
From: Robert Harris 
Subject: EGR - part the next.
To: 'Dave Williams' 

Now off merely into alchemistry.   The magic elixir.

First, let us look at the composition of intake.  About 15 lbs air to 1 lb.
fuel.  Air is 78% nitrogen, 20 % oxygen and 2% misc.  Fuel is carbon, hydrogen,
and unfortunately some oxygen.  Then we "burn" this chemical stew.  The result
is an "inert" gas consisting of misc., nitrogen, carbon dioxide, and hydrogen
hydroxide in vapor form. Now we blend this back into the intake under the
throttle.  Final result is a mix of misc., nitrogen, oxygen, carbon, hydrogen,
carbon dioxide and WATER!

Now the last time I checked, nitrogen is inert to the combustion process until
some temperature ridiculous.  Same with CO2 being about a zero sum game.  That
leaves only water as a well known active ingredient in the exhaust - about two
gallons for each gallon of fuel burned.  But no one I've ever read or listened
to mentions this or its impact.

Ignore the hype.  Does not EGR claimed behavior sound very similar to simple
water injection??   I would be willing to bet that adding dry nitrogen to the
charge would do absolutely nothing except reduce the power. Ditto for carbon
monoxide.

The water injection is a mixed bag. At idle and very light throttle, I think it
hurts by slowing and cooling an already thin fire. At greater throttle
openings, the additional water allows better spark advance for the entire
mixture.

For the current, I am thinking EGR = water vapor injection.

Now for the heresy.  Otto cycle engines are always discussed as hot air engine.
Total fallacy.  All IC engines are best thought of as Open Cycle Reciprocating
Steam Engines with the combustion gasses polluting the working fluid.  Someday,
I'll buy some reference books again - but check out the P/T of Nitrogen, Carbon
Dioxide and Aqua.  Wet steam makes 600 psi at 444 degrees f.   At normal
combustion temps, steam is well into superheat and making 1200 plus psi.  I
look at the N2 and CO2 as contaminants in the working fluid.  The hydrogen /
oxygen engine that the eco types get wet about is converting 100 % of its
charge into effective working fluid and thus gets the highest efficiency.

Where does that lead me??   Anyone ever give you a rational explanation of why
when adjusted to equal quantities of heat energy burned, alcohol always makes
more power than gasoline.  Simple - the combustion of alcohol yields greater
quantities of water and lessor quantities of carbon dioxide than gasoline.
More working fluid, less contaminants.

Thinking this way makes it easy to understand what the hot air heat engine guys
wrap themselves into knots to explain.  Like why greatly increasing the
combustion temperature doesn't make more power.  Vapor steam has an upper
pressure limit, and water, past a certain temp/pressure disassociates into
oxygen and hydrogen.  That temp is easily achieved in combustion.   Above this
temp, you are looking at the partial pressure contributions of dry gasses.
Cool to this temp, and wet rules start to apply.  Above this temp, oxygen
starts to look to nitrogen, iron and aluminum to reduce. Below this temp and it
gobbles carbon and hydrogen.  But if dry gas rules apply, raising combustion
temp will always result in more power.

NOX clues you when this starts to happen.  If the hydrogen won't associate with
the oxygen to form water, something else will.  The result is NOX.  NOX is dry
gas.  Power falls.  Raising compression past 10 to 11 to 1: starts losing
additional gains fast - diminishing returns yada yada yada.  Truth is,
combustion temp with these pressures is rising past the point that water can be
formed, so more dry gas contaminant, less water (steam) working fluid near TDC
less increase in BMEP.  Explains why BMEP is higher than that predicted by dry
gas heat engine theorists - they seem to ignore the steam component.

So by grokking that steam characteristics must be heavily weighed in the
combustion process, one gets an understanding jump on the competion.  I would
kill to make an engine that thoroughly exploits the inherent steam cycle.

Will dig into storage and send you big book on steam plants.  Will explain much
much about steam and will with my peculiar twist lead you into strange new
thoughts.

Now you can say bad things about my momma and question the location of my head
on my anatomy.l


Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 09:02:17 -0800
From: Robert Harris 
Subject: EGR
To: 'Dave Williams' 

Now of course, I venture into heresy.  How well do you like sacred cow burger -
cause if let loose, this may slay a bunch.

The "reason" for EGR is NOX reduction - don't you know.  The primary phenomena
associated with EGR is the reduction of PEAK combustion temperatures.  Hugh M
in his book on turbo chargers (which BTW - is an order of magnitude better than
"Maximum Fluff") even suggests that EGR should be seriously considered for any
positive pressure application.  The reasoning is that turbo/super charger
applications under moderate boost can reach chamber temps of upwards of 4000
degrees.  Moderate EGR can lower the peak temperature into the 2500 region
(remember - under boost now!), making possible higher sustained boost.  The
lower peak temperature also improves the detonation characteristics of the
mixture.  The small charge volume loss is partially compensated for with
improved combustion and, optionally, additional boost.  A side effect is
reduced detonation when EGR is on.

Under part throttle, EGR is instrumental in increasing both the engine
efficiency and improving it's detonation resistance.  To understand more, let
us consider the three physical things in dealing with EGR.  First - heat, next
- volume and lastly - the "Magic Elixir".

I content that for the best efficiency the air, fuel, oil and cooling should be
at the highest temperature practical.  For example, dino oil should be brought
to and maintained near 180 to 210 degrees as rapidly as possible.  The cooling
jacket should similarly be brought to 210 to 225 degrees rapidly and both
fluids maintained in that region.  The charge temperature should be brought up
to just under detonation limits until well into the throttle and only then
brought down to optimum power temperatures.  The latest wazoo dry cooling fluid
gains power by raising the cooling jacket to 350 degrees.   Extra intake heat
aids vaporization and mixture quality overall.  EGR gasses, introduced under
the throttle (carb) and blended with the intake charge can add significant
quantities of heat to the charge.  A lessor effect is that this regurgitated
heat can substantially reduce the effect of heat losses during part throttle
combustion, leaving the charge to only supply friction and driving energy.

Looking at the volume aspect, introducing additional gas raises the effective
compression ratio, and this too is a good thing.  More compression without more
charge.  These two physical properties would account for your friends dramatic
improvement in mileage with massive part throttle EGR.  Something to strongly
consider for Dejection.

In the next part, we consider the magic elixer - in another post.


Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 21:49:51 -0800
From: Robert Harris 
Subject: RE: Piston cooling
To: 'Dave Williams' 

Might want to consider running the oil to a oil/water heat exchanger on the
inlet side of the 6-71 water pump.  Small, efficient and saves using a
thermostat to keep the oil about 180 - 210.  Warms it faster, knocks the peak
temp down.


Right.  75% of the pump's flow goes overboard not far past idle.  CV
Products now makes an external oil filter bracket/pressure regulator
with return line for about $125.  One of my projects is to duplicate
that with a simple casting.

My way of doing things would be to take the oil from the pump, run it
through the filter, eed the oil galleries, and then use the bleed
oil to go through the oil cooler at low pressure instead of mains
pressure, then route the oil back to the engine via spray bars for the
valve springs and pistons.


Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 06:36:10 -0800
From: Robert Harris 
Subject: RE: Piston cooling
To: 'Dave Williams' 

Might want to include a bung for an oil TEMP gage in the bypass to cooler


Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 17:34:04 -0800
From: Robert Harris 
Subject: Water Injection in the Open Cycle Steam Engine - part II
To: "'dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us'" 

More on the exhaust injection wacko theory.  Remember that water expands 1800
when going to steam.  Steam is a major component ( 2 of 16 pounds ) of exhaust.
Steam going to water CONTRACTS 1800 times.  Done in the collector or at the
turbo exhaust outlet - should induce one hell of a pressure drop right where it
is needed.  Think about it.   And if it empirically works, nobody would believe
it and copy you.


Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 01:15:20 -0800
From: Robert Harris 
Subject: Ping
To: 'Dave Williams' 

Ever notice the classical wise and enlightened one's can give you great detail
about the detonation mechanism known as knock, but go so strangely silent about
pre-ignition??   Mutter something about hot spots, point source of untimed

Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 10:11:42 -0800
From: Robert Harris 
Subject: RE: EGR - part the next - continued - The Internal Combustion
To: 'Dave Williams' 

I have long contended that the best people in a field are those classically
trained in the scientific method who are NOT academically trained in the field
and have moved into it from another field.  Such people are not induced to
become acolytes of academia, do not blindly follow the holy writ, and being
forced to reason, draw from many strange and different resources.  They simply
do not have as much to unlearn as the students of the WORD.  There are very few
people today who ever deal with steam, probably no one in ME - IC knows anyone
or anything about steam power. The classical liberal (pre political use of
term) education with much cross fertilization brought us our most creative
people because of the breadth of their exposure to thought and knowledge.

Maximum boost = Maximum Fluff.  No theory, no meat, and no how to.  Total
waste.  Right up there with Smith

For understanding only EGR=H2O with extra heat and volume.

Why does burning a rich mixture make more power than stoic daddy?  And why is
the temperature of a rich burn lower than a stoic and a lean burn.  Isn't a
rich mixture releasing more thermal energy to make the higher pressure.

Let the hot air crowd deal with this.  How many forest's have they sacrificed
and still you must take their explanation on faith or pure fucking magic.

Basic chemistry shows that in the mix, hydrogen has the highest affinity for
oxygen, followed by carbon, and lastly nitrogen.  Carbon monoxide is incomplete
carbon combustion.  It has residual energy.  Since rich mixture's are cool
burning, obviously from SIMPLE THERMODYNAMICS, they must be weaker and
therefore generate LESS power. Stoic should be maximum because all fuel is
consumed.

Truth is, as the mixture is richened, the total energy released is DECREASED,
but more water is created.  More working fluid, less contaminants - more power.
The H2O portion of product is the power producing portion.  There is a
relationship between steam temp pressure and quantity.  When the amount of heat
loss (thereby steam pressure) is no longer overcome by greater quantity, power
will start to fall.  This is at about 12 to 13 to 1 mix.  But, since the
quantity of working fluid is still increasing, it falls very gently - right
down to the point where insufficient heat is released to form water. Then it
dies.

Optimum combustion temp is defined as the region between the minimum
temperature required to combine oxygen and hydrogen, and the critical
temperature of steam at the chamber pressure. (Critical temp - the highest temp
that steam will exist before disassociating into hydrogen and oxygen)

Now let them explain why lean burn is hotter - yet develops less power.
Doesn't all that dry gas raises to a higher temperature mean that there should
be more BMEP?  Same logic.  Less hydrocarbon, less hydrogen, less water formed.
Less heat transferred to working fluid. Less power.  Heat rises because there
is insufficient working fluid to absorb all heat. With less working fluid
(water) to absorb the heat and convert to power, the chamber temp starts to
approach the free air temp of carbon combustion which can easily exceed the
combustion temperature of aluminum, iron and steel. If dry gas was mechanism,
power would be skyrocketing ( so much for carnet cycle.)

Combustion of hydrocarbons creates H20 and releases heat.  Water (steam)
absorbs heat and coverts it to pressure with minor contribution of dry gas.
Pressure moves piston.  The biggest hole in their theories is the total
avoidance of the water phase.

More to follow - be very careful.  If they knew,  they would be readying the
stake and firewood as we speak.

-----Original Message-----
From:   Dave Williams [SMTP:dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us]
Sent:   Saturday, January 24, 1998 5:31 PM
To:     bob@bobthecomputerguy.com
Subject:        EGR - part the next.


-> Now for the heresy.  Otto cycle engines are always discussed as hot
-> air engine. Total fallacy.  All IC engines are best thought of as
-> Open Cycle Reciprocating

I've been saying that for years.  The peasants light the torches and
parade outside the castle.  "But you can't ignore the laws of
thermodynamics" they say.  Surely not - but they don't apply to IC
engines, and the Carnot Cycle is a perfect example of trying to make the
facts fit a theory.

I didn't follow the reasoning down to water like you did, but I knew
that heat didn't account for all the pressure generated in the cylinder;
simple chemical expansion works too.  I've run little model engines on
baking soda and vinegar, stone cold, no thermodynamics necessary.


-> For the current, I am thinking EGR = water vapor injection.

The problem with EGR is you're limited in airflow capacity at WOT,
which is where you *need* water injection or EGR.  The EGR gasses,
though cold by combustion standards, are hot enough to displace a lot of
the incoming charge, and the extra heat they bring to the chamber
probably doesn't help the detonation limit much either.  EGR is a sleazy
sort of solution compared to water injection, which is dense enough not
to displace much of the intake charge.  The advantage of EGR is that
it's free; the engine is always putting out exhaust, while some moron
might not bother to refill the water tank.

I got a copy of Ricardo's "The High Speed Internal Combustion Engine"
on inter-library loan a few years ago.  He had a lot to say about water
injection.  Apparently he had been contracted by some industrial engine
companies to do some basic research.  I'd love to have access to some of
that raw data.  I'm sure it exists, and equally sure it's not free -
Ricardo Consulting Engineers is still very much in business.


-> Thinking this way makes it easy to understand what the hot air heat
-> engine guys wrap themselves into knots to explain.  Like why greatly
-> increasing the combustion temperature doesn't make more power.

I should've at least gummed that thought a bit.  That steam book you
mentioned would help a lot.

Perhaps you need to polish things up and present a paper to the SAE.
"But the Emperor has no clothes..."  I hope there are no tomato stands
near Cobo Hall.  Hell, look at me trying to explain why independent

<<<>>>

lemmings are worse than political lemmings.


-> Now you can say bad things about my momma and question the location
-> of my head on my anatomy.l

Feh.  For a real laugh try Taylor's two-volume set on engine design
from MIT.  The entire first volume and half the second is devoted to
classical thermodynamic modeling and chemical reductions.  Unfortunately
it's all bogus, but Taylor is a PRIMARY SOURCE, like the King James
Bible, and therefore cannot be questioned.

Feynman had some words about that kind of research in "Surely You're
Joking, Mr. Feynman."  Well worth acquiring on inter-library loan.
He mentioned how some of the data in famous experiments like
Michelson-Morley was off by significant amounts, and how *nobody* would
say anything about it.  So generations of students received PhDs in
physics and went into labs having learned bogus data...  and to think
these same guys sneer at the likes of Lysenko.


Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 13:22:56 -0800
From: Robert Harris 
Subject: RE: EGR and Economy.
To: 'Dave Williams' 

Conventional wisdom says to increase economy, run leaner - i.e. use less fuel
and same amount of air.  Leaning past stoic.  This is accompanied by increased
chamber temp, increased pre-ignition, weaker spark, more knock and a generally
weak combustion.  Grokking EGR changes the whole picture.

Optimum mixture for economy is just a hair leaner than stoic - with heavy EGR.
You know how I hate NOX - means I'm losing working fluid that makes power.
Maximum economy means utilizing maximum amount of energy and minimum of fuel -
which occurs at Stoic.  Richer throws away energy to make more working fluid.
Leaner throws away working fluid to use less fuel.  Keep in mind the following


Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 13:22:56 -0800
From: Robert Harris 
Subject: RE: EGR and Economy.
To: 'Dave Williams' 

Conventional wisdom says to increase economy, run leaner - i.e. use less fuel
and same amount of air.  Leaning past stoic.  This is accompanied by increased
chamber temp, increased pre-ignition, weaker spark, more knock and a generally
weak combustion.  Grokking EGR changes the whole picture.

Optimum mixture for economy is just a hair leaner than stoic - with heavy EGR.
You know how I hate NOX - means I'm losing working fluid that makes power.
Maximum economy means utilizing maximum amount of energy and minimum of fuel -
which occurs at Stoic.  Richer throws away energy to make more working fluid.
Leaner throws away working fluid to use less fuel.  Keep in mind the following
is a first order approximate for illustration purposes.

Fresh Charge.  15 to 1 (approx. stoic)          30 to 1 (extremely lean - very good
economy)
12 pounds nitrogen.                     12 pounds nitrogen
3 pounds oxygen                 3 pounds oxygen 
1 pound fuel.                   .       .5 pounds fuel

Exhaust from same       (assuming water and gasoline are same density for
illustration only)
12 pounds nitrogen                      12 pounds nitrogen (no nox)
2 pounds water (H2O)                    1 pounds water
2 pounds CO2 with a tad of O2 or CO     1 pound C stuff
1.5 pounds free oxygen wanting to combine

Now lets blend the mix 50/50 by weight with EGR
24 pounds nitrogen      /2      12 pounds
3 pounds oxygen /2      1.5 pounds      
1 pound fuel            /2      .5 pounds
2 pounds water          /2      1 pound
2 pounds C stuff        /2      1 pound

Exhaust from 50/50
12 pounds nitrogen
2 pounds water
2 pounds C stuff

Notice that we are burning the same amount of fuel as if it were a 30 to 1
mixture but DOUBLE the working fluid and no free oxygen looking for something
to combine with.  With twice the working fluid, we are converting twice the
heat to pressure.  Minor side note, it talks over a thousand degrees to FORM
water, but steam at 444 degrees f makes 600 PSI - a number that is associated
with 8 to1 compression peak cylinder pressure.  We wind up making the same
power as if it were non-EGR stoic - from half the fuel.

Any heat in the mixed charge does nothing but Hep.  Don't even think of knock
from the heat.  Bad dry gas thought.  We are ingesting twice as much water as
fuel.  Even 25% water to fuel weight blows octane out of sight!  We can use
heat right up to the auto-ignition point of the fuel.  The well heated mixture
takes less ignition advance, therefore making less negative power (pressure
prior to TDC).  Increasing the total heat (up to critical temperature)
increases the steam pressure on the piston and it matters not whether it comes
from intake, compression, fuel or re-ingested exhaust.

Side thought.  EGR induced water and heat lower the exhaust gas temp.  Why -
re-ingested heat lowers the total heat needed to be generated to generate the
same power (temp/quantity) of steam, therefore the total temperature is lower
and as a result, the exhaust is cooler.

So in effect, the above shows the effect of re-ingesting 50 % of the exhaust.
Massive enuff for you??   With a turbo, it might be possible to get near this
amount of EGR and still run.  With EGR for economy, you do not want
inter-cooling for part throttle.  In fact, you might want to size turbo so it
is making HEAT at part throttle and not functioning efficiently until closer to
full throttle.

Implications for Dejection.  First, running lean means moving away from closed
loop.  No really good, quick responsive means of determining when max lean
occurs.  So have to use EGT temp - and guess when to stop by peaking. Plus all
kinds of guessing.

Now, using massive EGR, can stay closed loop.  Stoic with massive EGR is close
to optimum.  Fuel management does not even know that we have transitioned into
economy cruise.  Still thimking about how to stage EGR in to maximum. Simple
steps and proportioning may bring on improvements but not really all that can
be had.  But aint it nice to know that the system doesn't ever intentionally go
lean and as a side effect ever intentionally create NOX - no matter what the
compression and boost.  Now the only time we need to come off Oxygen Sensor is
at full throttle.

Side notes to discuss later:
A. Why knowing and understanding free hydrogen explains pre-ignition and Bruce
Hamilton can't
B. How Nitrous Oxide Really works
C. Catalytic igniters for power and turbos.
D. EGR for max power.


Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 17:05:26 -0800
From: Robert Harris 
Subject: Water Injection in the Open Cycle Steam Engine
To: 'Dave Williams' 

So if the IC is really an Open Cycle Steam Engine, why doesn't water injection
do much other than a good anti-knock?

It would seem that adding more working fluid would add more power, based on my
previous posts - but we are limited to a small amount of improvement.  Larger
quantities always seem to wind up bringing marginal increases.  If water were
the mechanism wouldn't more water make more power?  Again, we go to the steam
engineering manual.  If you look at the temperature/pressure curve of H2O, we
see an enormous knee at 212 degrees.  Yup - good old boiling point of water.
It takes enormous heat to change state.  This gives H20 many times the latent
heat of evaporation of even menthol alcohol.

Now the books say a gallon of gasoline expands 900 times when mixed with air,
and water expands 1800 times when boiled.  Humm, guess that says a lot about
the source of the power.  Now remember that water is CREATED by combustion.
That water does not have to go thru the transition.  EGR water same oh.  Its
above the boiling point.

So what happens is that an enormous amount of heat is absorbed, more than a
modest amount of water slows the burning and production of water and it sort of
levels out.  The total volume is there - but since its formed later in the
cycle, the piston has moved further down the cylinder with all that that
entails.

The trick then is to get more hydrogen or oxygen into the chamber and make it
when it burns. Looking at ammonia injection - need more data.  Contains heat
(about half of gasoline) and lots of hydrogen. Ammonia = NH3.   Trick is can it
be burned cool enuff to keep the nitrogen from robbing the oxygen. If it
decomposes at a low enuff temp, the heat released can reduce the amount of
carbon needed going to CO2, and increasing the working fluid.  Done right, no
nox, more power and ammonia is CHEAP.  This is as a bi-fuel. Think about more
heat more working fluid from something that farmers pay pennies a gallon for.
And the boost comes from a liquid (not a gas), and should have minimal affect
on ping and knock - unlike nitro.

The real hope for water is direct cylinder injection.  If the water is injected
after the fire peaks (about 12 degrees ATDC), then we use the latent heat of
evaporation to our advantage.  We suck up lots of heat, make the state
transition and its 1800 to 1 expansion and add lots of pressure with lever arm
advantage.  We do not interfere with the major portion of the fire - and kill
all possibility of late pressure induced knocking.

Not knocking liquid water injection, just explaining why it does not live up to
expectations.  Can really use some with dejection.  Also, seriously considering
water injection into the exhaust. Conjugate if you will, the effect on exhaust
cycle, if at the collector, it encountered a sudden major temperature drop.
Volume of the gas drops suddenly, and the rest of the system appears like a
canyon.  The "liquid mud" would literally leap into the collector.  Conjugating
doing the same after the turbo.  Wonder what dropping the backing pressure
there would do for flow and response.

Course, most of this is off the top working its way into the grok list.  By now
you have a head ache and probably need a rest from re-arranging neural
pathways.


Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 17:08:39 -0800
From: Robert Harris 
Subject: Welcome home to Jesus
To: 'Dave Williams' 



Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 17:08:39 -0800
From: Robert Harris 
Subject: Welcome home to Jesus
To: 'Dave Williams' 

It's come to Jesus time.   Please send me a UPS address.

Straight from the almighty - holy writ will be sent to you.

Book the first -  "Steam - Its Generation and Use"  37th edition.  By Babcock &
Wilcox Company.  A for the trade only book not generally available to the
public and virtually irreplaceable. This is the 1960 printing and will tell you
more than you ever wanted to know about steam.  I need this one back.  It's my
bible when it comes to steam and will be lost without it.  Read it, peruse it,
check out funky old book stores - they are relatively easy to find.  Send it
back in a couple of months.  Understand - no bookie, no grokkie steam no more.
Please be very careful with this baby (as I know you will)

Example saturated (no super heat - just wet steam) steam pressure at 705.4 F
is 3206.3 psi
And a 1000 psi is high pressure??  So what.  Steam can reach 5500 psi at the
temperature ranges associated with combustion.

Book the second "Railroad Locomotive Cyclopedia - 1943 Edition"  American
Railroad Association (Reprint).  Out of print, out of reprint - the Bible on
steam locomotives during their finest hour.  Another for the trade only book.
Everything you always suspected was in print about steam engines.  Sort of
like Janes for choo choo's.  Very rare and hard to find - particularly for
under $200.00

After perusing these books, you will understand much more about steam than
needed.  B & W thinks carnot cycle sucks - need to use rankin cycle to even
begin to understand steam.

And after reading, you will understand my need for data - and why I think most
modern books are Fluffy comic books.


Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 20:20:28 -0800
From: Robert Harris 
Subject: RE: Water Injection in the Open Cycle Steam Engine
To: 'Dave Williams' 

Best concentration I can find is Urea.  About 70% ammonia, 30 water.  Farmer

Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 14:31:57 -0800
From: Robert Harris 
Subject: RE: EGR and Economy.
To: 'Dave Williams' 

Much as I would like to take credit for the water phase, it would be a
disservice to the thousands of engineers that worked for the railroads
perfecting the steam locomotive.   Almost all locomotives used Open Cycle
Reciprocating Steam Engines.  Open cycle meaning simply that the steam was
exhausted to the atmosphere rather than Closed Cycle reclamation and reuse.
One can find much more cogent and useful information even to today on steam,
steam physics and steam engines than the typical bullshit about IC's.
Remember, the engineers designing and building the iron horses were at the
leading edge of science and technology and were revered by their companies and
fellow associates more than any ME - IC could ever conceive.  They lived and
breathed steam physics and even today, I would bet that steam ME's look with
scorn at piddling IC ME's.  I never heard of the Carnot Cycle applied to steam
- but I could be wrong.  To work with steam, specially big steam, you must
become one with steam and truly understand it.  Mistakes cost not pennies but
literally millions of dollars.  The cut is much finer, sharper and deeper.

My only contribution is the realization that the basic underlying principal of
the IC was the Open Cycle Reciprocating Steam Engine.  Once that is realized
and you understand that all the IC stuff is contamination in the working fluid,
you can take off to strange new worlds.  I agree that Smokey probably left a
little too soon on his hot air engine.

Remember how I have never been afraid of compression?  Of using EGR or high
boost on turbos?  Much of this was in the back of my mind.

Will reread fuel emulsification stuff.  Not real confident.   Learn about phase
change.  To change from solid to liquid, or liquid to gas takes an enormous
step of energy at the phase change.  The energy needed to change phase in not
released until the phase is reversed.  That's why water injection is not as
efficient as recycled water in EGR - it has to absorb the steep step to
vaporize.

But strange thought. Why not use Bosch injectors with an air jet to help
vaporize fuel ok?  Instead, use the excess exhaust heat to boil (thereby
providing the step change energy) injection water  (now steam at 150 psi or so)
and vent the steam into the air jets.  This should violently shred the fuel
molecule (great atomization), heat it towards vaporization, and provide phase
change energy bought from waste heat free working fluid.  Now I know where I
saw this before - this is how the black oil injectors on a shipboard boiler
work.

Keep this up Dave and maybe Octane won't matter.


-----Original Message-----
From:   Dave Williams [SMTP:dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us]
Sent:   Monday, January 26, 1998 9:33 AM
To:     bob@bobthecomputerguy.com
Subject:        RE: EGR and Economy.


-> Notice that we are burning the same amount of fuel as if it were a 30
-> to 1 mixture but DOUBLE the working fluid and no free oxygen looking
-> for something to combine with.  With twice the working fluid, we are
-> converting twice the heat to pressure.

I have some messages archived around here from a few people, back a few
years ago, who were promoting massive EGR for economy.  Their arguments
were passionate but lacked rigor; one or two claimed to have actually
done the EGR mod and gained economy, though.  The Harris Water Cycle
Theory explains this neatly.


Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 15:55:06 -0800
From: Robert Harris 
Subject: Self tuning enrichment.
To: 'Dave Williams' 

Oh damn.  Exhaust manifold pressure is higher than boost pressure.  Got to
rethink.   Was a nice idea, but not worth shit in the long run.

But it does simplify the design of the cruise feed back egr.

Still will find a way to bleed air into manifold for leaning - probably using a
modified smog pump.  Not yet where I want to be.

Any idea of the PSI of the smog pumps?

Course Corky Bell could be wrong about the pressure - but damn it makes sense.
Was too good to be true anyway.


Thinking replacing the fixed restriction with air pump and plumbing bleed air
to inlet, output air to ports.  Since it is positive displacement will force
air in proportioned to boost and RPM.  Just not as clean as I want.