dave williams
rec.autos.tech 12-08-92
- Basically, synthetics are tougher, lubricate better, and you can extend your 
  oil change intervals slightly.  You still have to change the oil, because 
  the synthetics' additive package fills up with water from condensation and 
  general crud from blowby, just like regular dinosaur fermentings. 
- Modern, name-brand SG rated oils are *much* better than the stuff of just 
  fifteen or twenty years ago.  They're better than some of the earlier 
  synthetics.  They're more than capable of dealing with your average 
  automobile's lubrication needs, particularly WHEN CHANGED AT REGULAR 
  INTERVALS.  I'd lay money half the cars in America hit the junkyard with the 
  same oil they left the factory with. 
- Anyway, if you're pulling a trailer, drive very hard, or have a turbocharged 
  or supercharged engine, or are just plain paranoid, a synthetic oil will 
  give you a little extra edge, but it won't work miracles.  If you can afford 
  it, go for it. 

[email protected] (Dave Williams)
italian  21 Mar 1994
- -> engines, then changes the oil to synthetic (another debatable
  -> topic-breakin on synthetics) and puts in another filter.
- Debate?  You want debate?.    I talked to TRW, Perfect Circle,
  Hastings, and Total Seal back in January.  The word from the people who
  make the rings - don't try to break the engine in on synthetics or
  you'll have trouble getting the rings to seal.  They recommended
  starting with a good brand of dino oil and going to synthetic at 100 to
  500 miles.
- When I asked about the Corvette ZR-1 and the Cadillac Northstar, the
  Perfect Circle tech said "yes, I know they're doing that, but it's still
  not a good idea."
- All four reps agreed that the rings would eventually seat with
  synthetics, and that moly or ceramic coated rings might not have
  problems, but why tempt trouble?

[email protected] (Dave Williams)
italian  23 Mar 1994
- -> regular on the other- you can feel the slickness difference. In jet
  -> engines, they change the oil only during rebuilds, I'm told, just
  -> change the filters regularly and test the oil for metal particles.
- True, but turbines aren't subject to anything like the abuse piston
  engines can do to their oil.  They typically run for long periods of
  time, don't have any unburned fuel or blowby contamination of the oil,
  and the combination of heat and altitude minimize water contamination.
  (water/oil/heat generates acids that attack many bearing materials)
- Big engines - mobile and stationary Diesels, that sort of thing - often
  go for oil analysis instead of a regular change interval.  But you're
  talking about maybe 50 quarts or more of oil, where the $10 to $30 fee
  for oil analysis starts looking pretty good.  You can buy five quarts of
  dino oil and a filter for about $10; I couldn't find any place what
  would do an analysis cheaper than that.  I'd just as soon have nice
  fresh oil.

[email protected] (Dave Williams)
italian-cars list  07 Apr 1994
- -> Are all synthetic oils created equal?
- Um.  As a matter of fact, no.  There are some substantial differences
  in the base compositions.  On the other hand, for street and even most
  racing uses, there's not enough difference to concern yourself with.
- ->  (part dino oil, part synthetic)
- There's nothing wrong with para-synthetic or synthetic-boosted oils
  unless you're dealing with something like a very hot drag motor that's
  at the limits of effective lubrication to begin with, or are trying to
  stretch change intervals past 10,000 miles or so.

[email protected] (Dave Williams)
fords  02 Aug 1994
- -> Red Line uses polyol esters, Mobil One is composed primarily of
  -> polyalkylene esters.
- Red Line is pretty much the odd man out now.  Most of the modern
  synthetics are PAO based like Mobil 1 as far as I know.
- The "Shake Well Before Pouring" on Red Line's bottles pretty well
  turned me off right from the start, though a friend has used it without
  any complaints.  Maybe it was just an artwork hiccup.
- Back in the early '70s through the mid'80s there were at least a dozen
  startups selling synthetics.  You'd see glowing reviews in Popular
  Mechanics or whatever, then they'd drop from sight.  Some were probably
  okay products doomed by marketing, but at least a few were repackaged
  aviation lubes and not too great for automotive use.  Mobil 1 was the
  only synthetic widely available.  Others, like Amoco's Ultimate, have
  been around almost as long, but were packaged and marketed only to fleet
  buyers.

[email protected] (Dave Williams)
italian-cars  06 Aug 1994
- -> Seriously, do remember that oil - even synth oil - is a petro
  -> product,
- True.  PAOs such as Mobil 1 are made from natural gas.  Polyols like
  Red Line come from various sources, sometimes cracked petroleum.
- -> and the US is an oil exporter, not an importer,
- False.  The US of America imports.  After WWI the War Department
  realized the future of warfare lay with mechanized infantry, which in
  turn depended on petroleum products.  America's best oil fields were
  brought under government control and are military reserves.  The tax
  structure was then juggled to make it more attractive to burn someone
  else's oil instead of our own, which is fine military strategy even if
  it isn't Mr. Nice Guy politics.  We still pump lots of our own oil,
  though.  More than we used to.  Twenty years ago there was this little
  problem with something called OPEC...
- -> besides which oil and gas are heavily subsidized here.
- False.  There are no subsidies on oil and gas in the USA; de gummit
  just taxes gasoline at 100% or so instead of 300% or more like some
  other places.  Fuel "oils" are taxed at varying rates depending on their
  intended use, and frankly I have no idea how lubricating oils are taxed.

dave williams
08-06-95
- -> > Synthetic oil is too good of a lubricant during break-in
  -> > causing the rings to not seat properly.
- -> I believe that this is an old wive's tale.  While the process may
  -> take a little longer, rings and valves still seat themselves.
- Last year I spoke with various engineers at TRW, Grant, Hastings, and Total 
  Seal.  They all specifically warned against the use of synthetic oil for new 
  engines.  All the ring makers have tech support people available; all you 
  have to do is call and ask to speak to one. 
- -> Chevy Corvette LT-1 and LT-5 engines are broken in with Mobil 1.
- When I asked about that, the TRW ring tech said, "Yes, I know they do that.  
  It's still a bad idea."   You may also be interested to know that GM says 
  the LT-1 and LT-5 must use more than one quart of oil every 500 miles before 
  they will perform warranty service on the problem.  That's not quite 
  mosquito fogging, but most people would consider that as quite high oil 
  consumption. 

dave williams
08-06-95
- -> Mobil makes a fine product, but Amsoil was the first company to
  -> develop a 100% synthetis API rated engine oil way back in 1972.
  -> Mobil did not come around till 1975.  Amsoil pioneered synthetic
  -> lubricants for cars and trucks... not Mobil.
- Oh, my.  What interesting propaganda.  Standard Oil of Indiana did the first 
  development of synthetic oils back in the 1930s.  The Germans built upon it 
  during WWII after the Allies successfully interdicted their oil supplies.  
  Development continued more or less unbroken as Paperclip scavenged the 
  program for the US jet engine projects.  By the late 1940s there were a 
  number of commercially available synthetics, mostly diesters, aimed at the 
  aviation market.  The military has used synthetics for polar-environment 
  land vehicles since the 1950s. 
- During the 1960s a number of synthetic oils hit the market, mostly 
  repackaged aviation oils.  By the early 1970s some companies were making 
  their own, or buying base stocks and developing their own additive packages.  
  All Proof, Love, and Freedom were some of the early brands. 
- No, AmsOil didn't pioneer any oil technology, though their MLM marketing 
  scheme evidently uses some nifty mind control techniques. 

dave williams
08-06-95
- -> Steve    I have saved close to $1,000 over the past 4 years using
  -> Amsoil synthetic oil in my engine from the improved fuel economy alone.
  -> Petro oils?  Thanks, but no thanks...they cost me too much money!  :)
- You must be racking up an awful lot of mileage.  Most figures show the 
  average driver does about 12,000 miles per year. 
    12,000 * 4 = 48,000 miles
    Other figures show the average car gets 20 mpg.
    48,000 / 20 = 2400 gallons
    SWAGging an average of $1.15/gal over the last four years:
    2400 * $1.15 = $2,760 in fuel costs over four years.
    $2,760 / $1,000 = .36, or 36%
- You got a 36% increase in gas mileage, or (using Mobil's 3% improvement
  figure) drove about 125,000 miles per year to save $1,000.
- I'd like to see your numbers.

dave.williams
rec.autos.tech  08-13-95
- -> of them.  Realize that Mineral Oil products are simply distilled from
  -> the crude oil that is pumped from the ground.  Synthetics WASTE
  -> NATURAL RESOURCES because a great deal of precious energy is consumed
  -> in producing them.
- Simply distilled, eh?  Not hardly.  The output of fractions suitable for 
  lubricating oil is small, which is why a good deal of effort goes into 
  developing viscosity improvers for lighter fractions.  Even with the 
  fractions of suitable grade, considerable work is done to remove paraffins, 
  sulfur, and other undesirable contaminants.  The energy input to do all this 
  is nontrivial. 
- Though there are other processes, the most common method of generating 
  synthetic oils starts with natural gas.  Yes, children, "synthetic" oil 
  starts out as hydrocarbons in the ground, just like ordinary oil.  The 
  difference is, rather than cracking and purifying random hydrocarbon chains, 
  synthetics are built up from short, simple molecules.  The overall 
  difference in "precious energy", from source to shelf, is negligible. 
- -> producing them.   AND FURTHERMORE NO ONE CAN USE THEM LONGER AND
  -> STILL HAVE A GOOD ENGINE THAT WILL LAST AND LAST.
- It is my opinion that most automobiles sold in the US hit the junkyards with 
  the same oil the manufacturer filled them with, plus a few quarts of 
  whatever was cheapest when the poor thing started to rattle after the oil 
  light came on.  Many of these engines *still* pass the 100,000 mile mark.  
  Still, *any* oil change, regardless of brand or type of oil, is preferable 
  to eight year old sludge. 
- -> As for turbos - the oil that I use is designed to work in DIESEL
  -> ENGINE turbos - an environment that is at least as severe as auto turbos.
- The additive packages for Diesel-rated oils vary quite a bit from the 
  packages for gasoline oils.  That's why the API has a whole different rating 
  system for Diesels.  Diesel oils typically contain lots of nice high 
  pressure additives like zinc dithiophosphate, which makes gas engine 
  catalytic convertors unhappy.  Gas engine oils have additives to absorb 
  combustion byproducts that do not exist in Diesel engines. 
- -> BUT DO NOT USE A 5W oil in hot weather.  I know that the auto
  -> manufacturers recommend it - but THEY do not worry about your engine
  -> wearing out - they will sell you another car - THEY ONLY WORRY THAT
  -> THEY CAN CLAIM THE GOVERNMENT REQUIRED FUEL ECONOMY and 5W oils give
- The EPA requires autos sold in the USA to meet their emissions spec at 
  50,000 miles, soon to go to 70,000 miles.  If your engine wears out to the 
  point of failing emissions, the automaker will have to replace it, for free, 
  unless they can find a way to weasel out by claiming abuse or improper 
  service.  I'd say the automakers have a stake in how long the engine lasts.  
  Besides, in most parts of the country, the car will be wrecked or rusted out 
  long before the engine fails anyway. 
- -> people, the opinions of people who like to waste money and the,
- Locally, a name brand mineral oil costs $1.50-$1.85 per quart.  Mobil 1 
  synthetic and some of the para-synthetics run $3.50 per quart.  A dino 
  change costs me about $11.75.  A synthetic change costs me $20.50, or 
  roughly double.  This is quite favorable compared to 1980 prices, where dino 
  oils were 69 cents and synthetics were $8.00.  With a 3000 mile drain 
  interval, you're looking at 33 oil changes in 100,000 miles. That's $390 for 
  dino, $676 for synthetic.  The price difference is $286, which is trivial 
  over the operational lifespan of the car. 
- -> I have seen pictures of the underside of pistons (undercrown areas)
  -> comparing the deposits from a leading synthetic against a very high
  -> quality (but still much less expensive) mineral based oil.  The
  -> synthetic left severe deposits in just the course of a race - the
  -> high quality mineral was nearly clean.
- Hmm?  Who cares?  What did the *bearings* look like?  How about the 
  camshaft?  Does this test come out the same for street vs race use? 
- -> BTW a synthetic piston aircraft
  -> engine oil had to be withdrawn from the market because it left severe
  -> deposits in engines.
-  What brand?  When?  Enquiring minds want to know.
- -> Steve Eisenstein, PhD
  -> Lube Specialist for a Major Oil Company
- Major Oil Company, eh?  With your level of expertise, I can see why you'd 
  want to avoid embarrassing your employer. 

dave.williams
rec.autos.tech  08-13-95
- -> Oil does not wear out - the additives and acid neutralizing
  -> capability DO WEAR OUT.
-  Oil is composed of various long-chain hydrocarbons.  Its viscosity and 
  lubricating ability depend on the way these long chains slide over each 
  other. 
- Ordinary mechanical shear from the engine's operation breaks these chains, 
  reducing the oil's ability to carry load.  Combustion byproduct 
  contamination generalls causes an oil to thicken with age, but by this time 
  the chains are very short and the oil has little load-carrying ability. 
- -> Using a high quality mineral oil in my 4 cars (3 over 100,000 miles)
  -> and protecting the environment from the excessive use of natural
  -> resources to manufacture synthetic oils.
-  Why don't you go off and save the gay whales for Jesus, or something?